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1 month ago

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gnorrn
7633
1 month ago

ProPublica obtained the property tax documents using New York’s Freedom of Information Law. The documents were public because Trump appealed his property tax bill for the buildings every year for nine years in a row

I guess Trump's greed got the better of his desire for secrecy.

muskieguy13
3192
1 month ago

This was the best part. Awesome investigative journalism here. Very clever.

Levitus01
914
1 month ago

Why didn't the democrats think of this?

The cynic in me says they were dragging their heels deliberately.

Xenothulhu
1659
1 month ago

According to Richard Neal (head of the house says and means committee) he isn’t pursuing other options because he wants to firmly establish the fact that they have a constitutional right to access them in case it is needed for future presidents.

Edit: I’m leaving my typo because it’s funny but I did mean House ways and means committee.

Taograd359
835
1 month ago

That makes sense. Trump is pulling a lot of bullshit with the law and there needs to be precedents set for the future if anyone tries this shit again.

Phonemonkey2500
326
1 month ago

Gonna need a clean coal powered locomotive to haul all those cars of bullshit to the Halls of Congress for his Impeachment trial.

phantomcrash92
34
1 month ago

Too bad the project to extend a railroad to Congress' front door was abandoned because no one paid the contractors.

albatross-salesgirl
9
1 month ago

I heard they were going to use offshore battleships to lob all the tax records via steam-powered trebuchet.

Vaperius
8
1 month ago

There is such a thing as a "net neutral fossil fuels"

Its just not profitable to make them compared to just dumping the dirty unrefined fossil fuels directly into cars. All these fuels are is pretty much ordinary fuel that has been "super processed" through special reactions that bring its net carbon output to neutral.

Figured I'd mention this: its not that we can't make net neutral fuels, its that big oil and gas doesn't want to do that.

Phonemonkey2500
19
1 month ago

Um... I'm pretty decent at chemistry, and looked at the entries. Carbon neutral, yes, hydrocarbons, no. Burning hydrocarbons in combustion produces CO2 and H2O, and byproducts like CO, benzene, etc. Either way, it isn't clean coal as advertised by an industry that is dead for mass energy generation purposes. Time to move on.

phantomcrash92
4
1 month ago

Don't question them, they have great science, the best science. Instead of releasing both CO2 and H2O, they completely erase the CO2 from existence and THAT'S why it's clean

Phonemonkey2500
5
1 month ago

Why are we not funding this?? - Peter Griffin

Phonemonkey2500
14
1 month ago

Make sure you get the Dawn Soap, made by Proctor and Gamble, owned by Nestle! Gotta keep those stock numbers up for the investors! Damn shame about all those coal miners pensions... but you know, all the board members are gonna be able to pick up a new yacht each to hold them over while their non-nepotism picks them up another board position with a golden parachute. One yacht each, that's the real crime. They should each have 2 or 3. I mean, what if one is having the bunker fuel guzzling engine worked on?

I have no idea who owns those brands, just making a point. And I feel a little nauseous having written that.

NameMerchant
59
1 month ago

Precedents for Presidents

Dr_Kintobor
7
1 month ago

Why don't they want to bury him under the wall when he dies? It would set a bad president.

supersnaps
7
1 month ago

Dad joke, grandfather level.

USSRcontactISabsurd
6
1 month ago

We already have this question answered, via Teapot Dome.

crevulation
5
1 month ago

McConnell has made a career out of this, but Trump has laid bare that by far and large the operations of the government are largely carried out on common-sense decency "gentlemen's agreements" rather than codified into law.

Congress will need to put actual law on the books to prevent this and I doubt our legislative body can accomplish it as it operates now, and I don't think anyone has an answer for this.

DetachableWeenus
257
1 month ago

You think the average person today even knows wtf Teapot Dome is?

...I mean, we all know it's the arena where we pit old women against each other, right?

Formicidable
210
1 month ago

Two grannys enter!

ONE GRANNY LEAVES!

Poltras
77
1 month ago

I’m sorry, but it’s “AT MOST ONE GRANNY LEAVES!”

rubermnkey
12
1 month ago

"sometimes most of one granny leaves"

mandradon
30
1 month ago

Two grannys. One teapot.

albatross-salesgirl
9
1 month ago

Thundarjeeling Dome!

Ozymandias12
5
1 month ago

That sounds like a wonderful afternoon full of lively conversation, commiserating, and gossip

half-dozen-cats
4
1 month ago

Better than three grandpa's one lemon.

Fiftyfourd
48
1 month ago

Just had to look it up. I'm surprised and disappointed that I've never heard of it before.

TastyFace
40
1 month ago

I’d heard of it in school, but they failed to convey what exactly the scandal was. Just that it was one.

Wasn’t it like, Johnson accepting bribes when handing out oil exploration rights?

joieblowie
44
1 month ago

Warren Harding hiring cronies for his cabinet who then used their position to secure oil rights in Wyoming for either themselves or another homie. Harding was not totally disgraced by it because the conclusion in the end he was just an idiot with criminal friends who were using his influence without his knowledge. We covered it in 8th grade history class in a short chapter covering the presidents between Wilson and FDR, and it was immediately overshadowed by the stock market crash in the unit it was in.

Wolf6120
10
1 month ago

It was Warren G. Harding, about 40 years before Johnson, and technically it was his Cabinet members rather than Harding himself, but otherwise you’ve got the gist of it.

Showmethepathplease
732
1 month ago

Because they have other channels, like the constitutional rights conferred on them as a coequal branch of government

crusaderblings2
309
1 month ago

I'll believe it when I see Giuliani's ass get chucked into a cell for contempt

ManIWantAName
127
1 month ago

Well, since he said he wouldn't comply to subpoenas you may get what you want in the next week or so

ennuiui
118
1 month ago

Jailiani?

Sujjin
6
1 month ago

sounds like a brand of ointment.

squidgymon
7
1 month ago

It's actually a shit stain remover

MightyMike_GG
5
1 month ago

Oh, I thought it was an hemorrhoid ointment.

orkbrother
71
1 month ago

I promise you if it was one of us non connected people we would have been in jail long ago.

srcLegend
27
1 month ago

Truer words don't exist

thankyeestrbunny
8
1 month ago
hendy846
10
1 month ago

Basically because if they arrested him and went before a judge Guliani could say "oh I was kidding, I was going to appear on Wednesday." And the court would toss the arrest and say he wasn't in contempt.

I work in a law firm and we deal with stuff like that all the time. You know the defense is going to do something but you have to wait for them to do it before you can make your next motion.

ITRULEZ
7
1 month ago

Can't punish someone for a crime they haven't committed yet. Which is why we have laws for conspiring to commit murder and things like that. We can't punish someone for murder, so we needed a way to punish them for making the plan.

srcLegend
3
1 month ago

Makes sense, I suppose. Maybe they could've used a shorter deadline though

Booyahhayoob
30
1 month ago
Akiba89
37
1 month ago

So fuck the law I guess. And see for the Dems, fuck doing what you said you'd do. I don't get why the Democrats have been so... Accommodating. These Republicans are trying to dismantle democracy, literally their jobs, and they're dragging their feet

SenorBurns
28
1 month ago

I read somewhere that it's to look good when this stuff goes before the courts. "We tried everything, and we were reasonable; heck we bent over backwards to accommodate whatever needs they might have...and they still defied the subpoenas."

Spurty
10
1 month ago

There's this phrase I've heard recently, I think it goes something like this (with the genders changed):

"Lock him up! Lock him up!"

rnaa49
182
1 month ago

And they are explicitly sticking to Constitutional avenues in order to strengthen their case(s) if/when they take matters to court. They will argue they did not circumvent their prescribed rights (i.e., they played by Constitutional rules). It will be harder for a right-wing SC to find fault.

found_allover_again
72
1 month ago

And an asshole Trump appointed federalist society judge said that because they waited this long (in following procedure), there is no urgency. These corrupt fuckers have no shame.

mpa92643
24
1 month ago

The powers of the House to conduct impeachment investigations are explicitly laid out in the Constitution. I think Thomas will quietly repeat the party line, like always; Kavanaugh will probably support executive power, and Alito could go either way. But I strongly suspect Gorsuch and Roberts will strongly support the the right of the legislature to conduct its Constitutional duties to check and balance the Executive, which has guided their past decisions when they've joined the liberal bloc in issuing the opinion of the Court.

Roberts himself has been a strong advocate for the powers of the legislature, which is why he didn't topple the ACA when he had his opportunity. He's wary of an overly-powerful executive. Gorsuch has shown himself to be a reasonable Constitutional originalist, and no originalist can deny the text of the Constitution, let alone the very explicit reason for that text, checks and balances. I think this will be at least a 6-3 ruling in favor of the House. Maybe even 7-2, maybe even unanimous, but I would be extraordinarily surprised if John Roberts rewrote the Constitution to curtail the power of the legislature he's complained has done too little for too long now that they're actually doing something.

BowlOfRiceFitIG
10
1 month ago

Itll be insane if it isnt unanimous. Its explicitly laid out in law.

mpa92643
9
1 month ago

I agree, but Thomas has proven himself to be a hypocritical piece of shit, Kavanaugh supports broad executive power (as long as it's Republican power), and Alito is more reasonable, but still prone to hypocrisy if it serves his personal political interests.

Gorsuch and Roberts would never give the Executive a blank check to ignore Congress whenever they wanted in conflict with explicit powers granted to the Legislature. It would completely discredit every ruling they've ever made against Executive power. I don't see any way John Roberts and Neil Gorsuch support the Executive here. It should be unanimous, and I think there's a 90% chance it's at least 7-2. I'm reasonably certain where John Roberts would fall on this issue here, and it only takes one conservative to join the liberal bloc to get the right ruling, so I'm not concerned. Ruling to curtail the power of the House is the complete antithesis of modern conservative legal jurisprudence.

Haikuna__Matata
4
1 month ago

At this point I think a couple might. Judge Boof, though? Lol.

cscf0360
249
1 month ago

Because politicians aren't investigative journalists. The tools of politicians selling information are hearings, subpoenas and court orders. The tools of the investigative journalists are basically everything else.

facetiae_uvidae
85
1 month ago

selling

seeking typo, I assume.

You typed sekking and autocorrect did the rest.

headfirstnoregrets
143
1 month ago

Good investigative journalism.

mmm-toast
39
1 month ago

Why didn't the dems figure this out?

ShellOilNigeria
4
1 month ago

Because they aren't investigative journalists.

ax0r
6
1 month ago

But... Why male models?

BlackHumor
175
1 month ago

This isn't his income taxes, just property taxes. It's still interesting but it's not the thing everyone has been wanting to see.

[deleted]
65
1 month ago

[deleted]

SquozenRootmarm
5
1 month ago

If what he didn't even bother hiding already indicates this level of persistent tax fraud at an egregious level, what he's actively hiding has to be far worse.

gruesomeflowers
44
1 month ago

Headline on Friday: Senate Republicans unanimously pass bill to end freedom of information act.

SigmaStrayDog
11
1 month ago

The man is a white collar criminal, not blue collar. He's not likely to have much at all in the way of "income" he gets his greed on through "capital gains". Knowing what he owns and how its taxed and which bank accounts he has access to is likely gonna be more important that what he gets through any revenue avenue. Not that i'm discounting the need for his income tax documents to be made public.

Dubsland12
90
1 month ago

They are thinking full view Federal taxes not local property taxes.

Honestly none of this will matter in public opinion at this point. If abandoning troops and trading favors to foreign governments doesn’t change your mind cheating on taxes won’t

If he turns out to be 100%broke and in debt to Putin they will just spin it.

It will however provide more ammunition for NY state and others to prosecute him if he ever leaves office.

WillieFistergash3
10
1 month ago

Exactly. Screw public opinion. Trump should go to prison for tax fraud. (for starters...)

cyndessa
8
1 month ago

Trump should go to prison for tax fraud.

That is normally what they end up nailing mobsters on...

centran
5
1 month ago

If he turns out to be 100%broke and in debt to Putin they will just spin it.

Yeah but not monetary debt... "He just has no money but also no debt!!! He is such a smart businessman that he has all his money invested all the time!" /s

trace_jax3
45
1 month ago

AOC grilled Cohen on this very thing

steerbell
9
1 month ago

I think a lot of people thought that moment was important. I think now it may have been a critical moment. A stone thrown causing ripples that turns into waves if you will.

hugow
6
1 month ago

Yes! Cohen told us this months ago.

Mystic_printer
27
1 month ago

Trump has almost certainly been bribing people to get away with crimes. He’s pretty much said so and there are too many investigations and charges against him and his kids that have gone nowhere at the same time he’s donating to political campaigns to be a coincidence.

His properties and crimes are mostly in democrat controlled cities and states. Them looking the other way is the reason he was able to run in the first place. The asshole should have been ruined or imprisoned years ago.

wonko221
44
1 month ago

It almost sounds like you are blaming Democrats for Trump being president. But that would be idiotic, so I assume I misunderstand.

The Republicans clearly own their steadfast support of this criminal loser.

Sisimpos
11
1 month ago

well the republicans will never admit their own fault, even in voting Trump

Feenox
8
1 month ago

There's a lot of blame to throw around. He was a side show freak of a candidate and got billions dollars worth of coverage because every time he said something crazy CNN would break their necks trying to cover it.

The Republicans had a crowded field of suits running, and there wasn't a single one that stood up to Trump on the debate floor. Trump would say the most illogical shit and usually he'd get a weak rebuttal.

Trump was also in a unique position because he was willing to say anything to get approval. Calling Mexicans murderers and rapist is wrong and racist? Doesn't matter, my base loves it. Promise to never touch medicare? Fuck it, it's congresses problem. Build a wall? Sure, it's a concrete thing that voters can see being built (regardless if he builds it) and it reinforces peoples fears about "invasions" from south of the border.

As for the Democrats, and I know this isn't the most popular opinion, but Hillary wasn't a solid candidate. She was Democratic royalty and the DNC had her pegged to win from the start. Bernie never had a chance, because the media kept talking about Hillary's insurmountable lead. Her lead was almost completely from super-delegates, DNC faithful that committed all of their votes to her so early in the process that it was laughable. She should have wrecked him in debates, but she stayed reserved. She could have energized the black voting base but came out with tone-deaf shit like "all lives matter". Her platform was basically "it's good, lets not rock the boat." I voted for her, but a lot of people just stayed home, because they didn't like her, or they thought Trump had no chance.

Republican's are complicit with everything Trump has done as president, and they need to be attached to his slimy brand of politics for generations because of it. That's not the same as what got him here though, a whole lot of people had to fail and fail hard for that to happen.

OriginalName317
9
1 month ago

My growing cynical worldview also works: absolutely no one on the planet has their shit together. If we could somehow get a half dozen people to have their shit completely together, the world would be a different place.

WarmOutOfTheDryer
14
1 month ago

Nobody has their shit completely together. There are however plenty of people who have their shit mostly together. Unfortunately they're all busy trying to keep their shit together, and not in politics.

kybernetikos
3
1 month ago

Also the ones with their shit together are not all that relateable to the average voter.

greenismyhomeboy
7
1 month ago

It may be different since it seems like it was at the state level and not the federal. May have been more difficult for them to acquire those documents

I’m just trying to make excuses I suppose but that’s the only thing I could think of. Either that or yeah, they were dragging their heels deliberately. Or it’s possible they already have information related to this but haven’t gone public with it yet. Or whatever. Who knows

Iris_Blue
5
1 month ago

The cynic in me says they were dragging their heels deliberately.

Richard Neal sure as fuck is.

AndreasVesalius
6
1 month ago

What would be his motivation?

juniper_berry_crunch
4
1 month ago

ProPublica is the best. Well worth a coin in their tip jar if you have one to spare! (I am not affiliated, just an admirer of their top-notch work).

Medianmean
354
1 month ago

Let me guess - he said the taxes were ‘unfair.’

Warrenwelder
307
1 month ago

No. He was just practicing tax "avoision".

Angry_Apollo
107
1 month ago

Accountant here. Avoiding taxes is actually what we try to do. Evading taxes isn’t.

RuafaolGaiscioch
87
1 month ago

Can I ask you though, doesn’t even that seem a little fucked? Taxes should be just what you pay. I know it is for me, I have a set amount that I just need to pay or get back after doing my free tax thing every spring. Disregarding what’s legal and what’s not, isn’t it really a social ill that we have a whole industry around minimizing how much you pay into the communal system, and it’s an industry that’s exclusively available to the people who should be paying in the most?

largaburton
60
1 month ago

Also an accountant. It's not really that the industry is exclusively available to wealthy clients, it's more so that most people don't have a tax return complicated enough to justify hiring a CPA. If you're only filing a federal return and one state and just take the standard deduction there's really no reason to pay for an accountant. But yeah, corporate returns and high net worth clients definitely made me feel sleazy sometimes.

RuafaolGaiscioch
34
1 month ago

If that’s the case, then isn’t it true that the tax chart we all saw a week or so ago that showed how the rich were taxed at a lower rate is even worse than that? Because most people pay approximately those rates, but the wealthy minimize those rates in any way possible.

largaburton
65
1 month ago

Oh it's definitely shitty. Part of the problem is that people like you and I make most of our income from wages, which are taxed as ordinary income. On the other hand, the really high net worth people are making most of their income from interest, dividends, and sales of securities which are taxed at the capital gains rate (caps out at 20%). So adjusting the tax brackets really doesn't do shit to hit the truly wealthy unless we hit the capital gains rate too.

Spoonshape
6
1 month ago

The truly wealthy don't pay even close to that capital gains figure though. They own the companies which get wealthier and the money never gets taxes as an individual level. Real wealth doesn't flow into their individual accounts at a level where it can be taxed.

largaburton
6
1 month ago

Absolutely. I just didn't want to speak outside of my wheel house, which is what does get taxed.

RuafaolGaiscioch
11
1 month ago

I said, disregarding legality. So you’ve got this super intricate tax code, and a thousand ways to, as you say, structure deals and use accounting methods to minimize what is “only your fair share”. For everyone else, though, their “fair share” doesn’t include any of those minimizing factors. So you have this system which saves (makes) billions of dollars for wealthy people, by actively depriving the communal system everyone else pays into at a higher “fair share”. The wealthy win, the accountants rake in tons of money from charging exorbitant prices for their clearly extremely lucrative service (money which they undoubtedly will use the same tricks to minimize their own taxes on), while the government gets screwed out of revenue, politicians get to say we can’t afford to do anything, and regular Joe taxpayer still has to pay the number that TurboTax or H&R Block’s tax tools tell them to pay.

I get that all this is legal. But how the fuck is it fair?

condor_gyros
6
1 month ago

No no, you don't understand. It is fair for the class we're in. We're just not in the class that allows us to be smart and thoughtful, and structure deals and accounting methods to avoid taxes. Don't you see? We just have to stop being poor!

Bonesnapcall
7
1 month ago

So you believe rich people planting a single acre of crops on their land in the final years of their life to qualify for the exemptions for family farms from the Estate Tax are just "paying their fair share" despite them having never raised crops on the land ever before?

Cannonbaal
9
1 month ago

No, what he's done is not like crossing a border for a tax break. In many scenarios that as well is illegal.

You can get jailed for incorrectly stating your taxable school district.

Also the comment you replied to says directly that he isn't discussing legality. Hes discussing that it's morally fucked to pour over rules and find all the ways you can manipulate them to get ahead.

You immediately go well those fucked ways can still be legal. Get a grip on the conversation.

ImVeryBadWithNames
5
1 month ago

Congratulations on entirely missing the point.

WillieFistergash3
5
1 month ago

I'm no expert, but my understanding is that the tax code is how the government tries to incentivize private behavior. So they give tax breaks \ deductions for investments that should pay dividends for society in the long run. Ex - a relatively low capital gains tax - to promote investment. Of course, the devil's in the details.

superspiffy
63
1 month ago

It's a perfectly cromulent word.

huxley13
11
1 month ago

It really embiggins the conversation

exitpursuedbybear
4
1 month ago

Avoision...that's how I say it.

ReptileExile
4
1 month ago

Stable genius, infinite unmatched wisdom

matthung1
3
1 month ago

He didn't say infinite, he said unmatched... which is actually accurate. Maybe not the way he meant, but accurate nonetheless

bodymassage
20
1 month ago

While true I wouldn't necessarily call this greed. It isn't really that unusual to appeal your property tax bill every year. The city I live in even recommends appealing your property tax bill.

productiveRL
32
1 month ago

It can be both usual and greedy, especially if the person in question is usually greedy.

hanafitime
6
1 month ago

If I was committing a crime I wouldn't leave obvious evidence on the public record tho

ProtonMurphy
2
1 month ago

It'll go the other way, it's not his fault because he just hired people to handle it.

HoMaster
4
1 month ago

greed got the better of his desire for secrecy.

If Trump never became POTUS, none of this would ever hit the light of day and he would keep doing it and keep getting away with it. Even now, he's still getting away with it. And in the coming years what would happen to him? A slap on the wrist? Or he might even die soon since he is 73 so jail time won't mean shit.

velveteenelahrairah
1145
1 month ago

Well he DID brag about fiddling his taxes on Twitter. When someone shows you who they are, believe them.

kind2cats
803
1 month ago

He told us during the 2016 Presidential Debates that not paying taxes "makes him smart."

Slap-Happy27
279
1 month ago

Very smart and very not guilty

kind2cats
171
1 month ago

There's actually a Trump quote that matches your sentiment:

Very legal and very cool ~Donald Trump

zeusmeister
127
1 month ago

Yea, I believe that's what he was referencing lol

[deleted]
15
1 month ago

Fucking reddit

ggodfrey
80
1 month ago

“There is a good chance I might have committed some light treason”

cCowgirl
24
1 month ago

“I have the worst f*cking attorneys” is also accurate here.

Criterion515
51
1 month ago

I'm still completely baffled as to how that didn't raise enough flags to get looked at then and there. I'd love to see some investigation into who should have acted on that, yet didn't, and why.

pcarvious
28
1 month ago

Under fund the IRS enough and you get a situation where they can only afford to audit small businesses and poor people.

AskMeForFunnyVoices
4
1 month ago

That's a bingo!

bucket_of_steam
5
1 month ago

I agree. I am astonished there are not systems in place to detect this sort of blatant fraud automatically. Meanwhile if I claim I drove more miles than average I would get audited.

TheCredibleLiar
63
1 month ago

Nah, that's what he did when he was hanging out with Epstein.

[deleted]
11
1 month ago

[deleted]

Topcity36
10
1 month ago

Maybe he meant “diddling”?

Madlister
4
1 month ago

You said that again

m8k
13
1 month ago

Unless hie nicknamed his taxes Ivanka, probably not

Mornar
37
1 month ago

When someone shows you who they are, believe them.

For some reason this struck me harder than I expected it to. Good words to live by.

evolving_I
34
1 month ago

-Maya Angelou

Mickyfrickles
3
1 month ago

-Wayne Gretzky -Michael Scott -Donald Trump

peri_enitan
5
1 month ago

Very popular saying amongst those of us who have the misfortune to have an above average amount of experiences with narcissists and similar. Actual wisdom, unlike a certain orange. May it improve your life!

biggmclargehuge
110
1 month ago

The election was totally legit...but let's not talk about it anymore.
The Mueller Report TOTALLY EXONERATED me....but let's not talk about it anymore.
The phone call with Ukraine was perfect and totally clean...but let's not talk about it anymore.

ksiyoto
23
1 month ago

But we need to investigate Hillary and Benghazi again!

NerfJihad
8
1 month ago

Trump's had like 5 Benghazi's.

It's specifically a Democrat problem.

cantadmittoposting
9
1 month ago

No, Trump's had 0 or maybe 1 Benghazi, if you correctly characterize it as "false accusations about an event which were not the direct fault of, or result of wrongdoing by, the accused."

Salientgreenblue
2
1 month ago

We have had a Benghazi in just the last week. You know, cutting support from the Kurds and Turkey firing fucking artillery at our military purposefully and bracketing them with explosions when their location was known.

mriguy
6
1 month ago

If this is true...maybe the Mueller report didn’t TOTALLY EXONERATE the president.

Bite your tongue! That’s crazy talk!

Cantdrownafish
109
1 month ago

I expected nothing less.

What happened to the audit? I'm sure the audit would have shown these inconsistencies and he would have paid it back. /s

Mishken12
69
1 month ago

There was no audit according to the government

:edit: so technically they did an audit, the same way they technically investigated Brett kavanaugh. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/10/03/us/politics/trump-taxes-whistleblower.amp.html

ZtMaizeNBlue
68
1 month ago

Depends which part of the government you ask; the deep state operatives attempting to illegally overthrow the executive branch, or our one true master, lord and saving grace, king, leader, genius, president.

azflatlander
35
1 month ago

Stable genius.

ends_abruptl
32
1 month ago

...of unmatched wisdom.

GotThemBabyLungs
18
1 month ago

The most humble person he’s ever met , no one is more humble than him

Schuben
3
1 month ago

I'm sure he's said something like thst, but I'm curious how he could possibly think both are true statements. Either he just says whatever he wants to fit the current situation or he truly doesn't know what the words mean and is repeating phrases he has heard that to him made the other person sound important and adding superlatives.

thatscool22
3
1 month ago

yes.

WideRide
12
1 month ago

with Vice President Mike Pounds

metaobject
13
1 month ago

Who’s never heard of a Category 5 hurricane before

bazinga_0
8
1 month ago

Don't forget God Emperor. Or is that just an honorary title?

msic55
5
1 month ago

Throw Chosen One on the pile too.

ZtMaizeNBlue
3
1 month ago

Only the most humble of presidents would accept the title of God emperor. Thankfully we have the most humble president ever, so yes I believe he can also be known as our God emperor.

nangatan
3
1 month ago

He's well on the way to the final giant slug form, so might as well go with it.

RationalBiscuit
27
1 month ago

The audit is really complicated, it would take a successful businessman to explain it all...

falcon_jab
24
1 month ago

If only there were some established profession dedicated to the purpose of understanding things like taxes or audits, then we could ask someone with experience in that area. But that’s silly talk!

thatscool22
5
1 month ago

the IRS has said they don't audit rich people because it's too much work.

Euphoriia
4
1 month ago

Trump must not be rich.

MouseRat_AD
19
1 month ago

He majored in big words. The best words.

ashleyamdj
6
1 month ago

Everyone knows it.

metaobject
3
1 month ago

People are talking about it more and more everyday.

babbagack
8
1 month ago

the "I got away with it" kind of "smart", which isn't smart at all.

halberthawkins
37
1 month ago

Surprised? I assumed he did this even before he ever ran for president. Not surprised at all. Reading a story confirming Trump falsified tax documents to defraud lenders is like reading a news story confirming the Earth is round.

fullofclams
18
1 month ago

especially accurate because morons exist who will deny both

feisty-shag-the-lad
25
1 month ago

This is not the historical tax returns. This is records for 2017 while he was President Trump.

drfeelsgoood
4
1 month ago

These are not tax return documents, they are documents about what was reported to the tax bureau and banks about his properties income and value. And they are records of this for the last 9 years, as he has filed appeals every year. It shows him telling banks and the IRS different values for his properties income and value. It is real estate tax fraud to a T.

NorwegianPearl
9
1 month ago

Yeah when has anybody known him to be a paragon of modesty. If they were even remotely good or spinnable we would have seen them a while ago

keepinithamsta
4
1 month ago

I'm surprised it took this long for proof.

masterdebator88
4
1 month ago

I am shocked!!! I thought he was hiding his tax documents because they were so great, they'd blow our minds.

The-Autarkh
2520
1 month ago

For instance, Trump told the lender that he took in twice as much rent from one building as he reported to tax authorities during the same year, 2017. He also gave conflicting occupancy figures for one of his signature skyscrapers, located at 40 Wall Street.

Lenders like to see a rising occupancy level as a sign of what they call “leasing momentum.” Sure enough, the company told a lender that 40 Wall Street had been 58.9% leased on Dec. 31, 2012, and then rose to 95% a few years later. The company told tax officials the building was 81% rented as of Jan. 5, 2013.

A dozen real estate professionals told ProPublica they saw no clear explanation for multiple inconsistencies in the documents. The discrepancies are “versions of fraud,” said Nancy Wallace, a professor of finance and real estate at the Haas School of Business at the University of California-Berkeley. “This kind of stuff is not OK.”

New York City’s property tax forms state that the person signing them “affirms the truth of the statements made” and that “false filings are subject to all applicable civil and criminal penalties.”

The punishments for lying to tax officials, or to lenders, can be significant, ranging from fines to criminal fraud charges. Two former Trump associates, Michael Cohen and Paul Manafort, are serving prison time for offenses that include falsifying tax and bank records, some of them related to real estate.

"Certainly, if I were sitting in a prosecutor’s office, I would want to ask a lot more questions,” said Anne Milgram, a former attorney general for New Jersey who is now a professor at New York University School of Law.

...

Trump has previously been accused of manipulating numbers on his tax and loan documents, including by his former lawyer, Cohen. But Trump’s business is notoriously opaque, with records rarely surfacing, and up till now there’s been little documentary evidence supporting those claims. ProPublica obtained the property tax documents using New York’s Freedom of Information Law. The documents were public because Trump appealed his property tax bill for the buildings every year for nine years in a row, the extent of the available records. We compared the tax records with loan records that became public when Trump’s lender, Ladder Capital, sold the debt on his properties as part of mortgage-backed securities.

ProPublica reviewed records for four properties: 40 Wall Street, the Trump International Hotel and Tower, 1290 Avenue of the Americas and Trump Tower. Discrepancies involving two of them — 40 Wall Street and the Trump International Hotel and Tower — stood out.

There can be legitimate reasons for numbers to diverge between tax and loan documents, the experts noted, but some of the gaps seemed to have no reasonable justification. “It really feels like there’s two sets of books — it feels like a set of books for the tax guy and a set for the lender,” said Kevin Riordan, a financing expert and real estate professor at Montclair State University who reviewed the records. “It’s hard to argue numbers. That’s black and white.”

JayArpee
1895
1 month ago

Michael Cohen told us in no unclear words Trump does exactly this.

PeripheralWall
1224
1 month ago

“What he didn’t want,” Cohen testified before the House Committee on Oversight and Reform, “was to have an entire group of think tanks that are tax experts run through his tax return and start ripping it to pieces, and then he’ll end up in an audit and he’ll ultimately have taxable consequences, penalties and so on.”

A lawyer for Trump called the allegations “100 percent false” last year.

 "It’s identical to what he did at Trump National Golf Club at Briarcliff Manor,” Cohen said, referring to a New York golf course the president owns. “What you do is you deflate the value of the asset and then you put in a request to the tax department for a deduction.”

TehSoupNazi
485
1 month ago

To me it seems like it would have been much easier if he had just tried to make money honestly.

[deleted]
254
1 month ago

[deleted]

hyperviolator
116
1 month ago

What you describe is also why so many lottery winners mess up.

If you nail one of those mega power whatever $400 million net payoff ones, the first thing should happen is like $300M goes into things like Vanguard index type funds and you literally will never use that subset of money. It’s your investment capital. Do that at 30 and welcome to serious generational wealth. Even living off like a quarter of the dividends on that would be crazy person money. Like $50,000 a week net paycheck money.

You do the same with the other $100M but they are in locked away gated trusts for family members, and one for yourself as an “oh shit” in case you do mess up the bigger pot.

[deleted]
36
1 month ago

[deleted]

WinstonQueue
13
1 month ago

Nothing wrong with the hedonic treadmill if you are living off a quarter of the dividends. (As long as you buy carbon offsets.)

incongruity
11
1 month ago

the hedonic treadmill

I clearly go to the wrong gym...

BrotherJayne
4
1 month ago

Lol, implying there is an escape from the hedonic treadmill other than the grave xD

TexasDJ
7
1 month ago

He said 400mil net payoff. That’s after taxes.

xraygun2014
4
1 month ago

80mil left i don't know what to do with...

Banana stand, obv

sarcasm_hurts
214
1 month ago

Well, yeah, but then you have to actually work.

cCowgirl
88
1 month ago

AND be relatively competent at your job.

pykaswitz
4
1 month ago

And reinvest your profits instead of hoarding them and using shady lending practices to keep from dipping into those earnings.

kryonik
46
1 month ago

He would be richer now if he just took the $400 million his dad gave him and put it in a mutual fund.

sprucenoose
12
1 month ago

For all we know, Trump could be deeply in debt, and would have been better off burying the $400 million in his back yard.

brcguy
5
1 month ago

But would he? He’s already got a ton of assets. Money makes money, right? I’d imagine he wouldn’t have to lift a finger to stay totally wealthy forever.

He’s just stupid and greedy and there is no such thing as enough for him.

flippinlikebirds
125
1 month ago

My dad always told me that if you just follow the rules and do things the right way, you’ll end up better off than if you try to con the system. I live by this. I’ve seen it play out first hand many times.

TehSoupNazi
104
1 month ago

Yep, my dad owns a small business and is not "loose" with taking deductions in any sense. He has a company vehicle and that's about as far as he takes it, but he has said he knows competitors who stretch it to the max and try to take as much as possible from every deduction they can potentially hit. He said to me years ago that he makes plenty of money doing things the right way and it's just plain stupid and greedy to try to pull stunts like those. Granted, he is still a staunch conservative, but it still always rings in my ear whenever I read about elites hiding as much as humanly possible to stoke their greedy egos. I then get sad since my dad can't vote against Republicans :/

Clintoncunt420
37
1 month ago

Did you just describe to us the illusive honest conservative? I bet you have evidence of Bigfoot, don’t you? /s

TehSoupNazi
48
1 month ago

Well, he is a Catholic that still goes to mass every week and voted for Drumpf because "he couldn't bring himself to vote for a democrat."

He's my dad and I love him, but conservatives fucking suck.

Clintoncunt420
10
1 month ago

I feel your pain. My dad is the same way but only as a Canadian. Huge tax breaks for corporations, meh, they create so many jobs so why should thy pay taxes. But god forbid you fund a social program that may help a brown person and he’s full on ‘get a rope!’

Toroic
75
1 month ago

Your dad is basically wrong in a larger sense and right in a smaller sense.

Trump has been an idiot cheating people left and right for his entire life, but he inherited enough money that he was above consequences. If not for being president he'd still be above consequences, and there are innumerable wealthy people who achieved their wealth by being immoral but ahead of the law (consider Facebook, which is in morally abhorrent but legally undefined territory for much of it's income and is now too large and well-protected to suffer for that)

Laws are for small businesses and non-1%ers. For those following the rules is a better strategy because laws apply to you.

shrimp_demon
10
1 month ago

If not for being president he'd still be above consequences

I’m still waiting to see if that’s true. If anything, it seems the opposite. As president, he can’t be criminally charged (per Mueller).

Rahbek23
9
1 month ago

Well it's a bit of an open question if he could legally speaking, but regardless I think the other guy meant that if he never became president most of it would just keep flying under the radar as it has done mostly for a long while. So once he is no longer president in ~1 or ~5 years he could be on the hook, now that there's whole other kind of scrutiny and in term evidence that has been uncovered. It's all potential and I don't have my hopes high, but it could happen.

Drugsgoodreligionbad
6
1 month ago

Crime definitely pays until you get caught.

DrDerpberg
2
1 month ago

Well he did make less money than if he'd gotten the average New York real estate rate of return.

Saber193
6
1 month ago

Cohen didn't imply it, he specifically stated it.

Brannagain
70
1 month ago

Almost verbatim

Devil-sAdvocate
123
1 month ago
  • There can be legitimate reasons for numbers to diverge between tax and loan documents, the experts noted

What are those reasons? Seems kind of important for this article to leave out that information so we can research it.

kesa_maiasa
192
1 month ago

Given the value of his holdings, the biggest I can think of off the top of my head would be depreciation expense. Tax accounting lets you accelerate deprecation of certain classes of assets, while book accounting spreads the expense evenly over time. At the end of the assets life, the two numbers converge, but in the early years, you could have massive variances.

Devil-sAdvocate
23
1 month ago

Thank you for an informed response. Any others you can think of?

SoTaxMuchCPA
60
1 month ago

Some expenses are real but not tax deductible. For example, you can only deduct half of the expenses incurred for business meals. Some excess CEO pay is not deductible. These would result in lower book earnings than tax earnings.

By contrast, you can find examples of tax deductible expenses that might not make sense for book purposes. As someone noted, tax accounting often allows for accelerated depreciation or, in some instances, immediate expensing of the entire asset. Depreciation is the big one that’s deductible for tax and not book, but other incentives can be thought of similarly.

There are similar things with income. For example, income from municipal bonds is tax exempt. However, that income still exists. So you’d reflect less income on your taxes than on your business/personal income statement. Any income that isn’t recognized for tax purposes would fall in this bucket.

Dane1414
25
1 month ago

I’ve worked in commercial mortgage banking. Property valuations are extremely subjective and there’s a lot of gray areas to swing a property’s value one way or the other that would be legal. In a simplified explanation, one of the most common and easiest ways to determine a property’s value is to take the profit from the property and multiply it by some multiple (that’s somewhat consistent across the real estate market you’re in). For example, an office building in Manhattan might generate $100 of profit per year. If that building recently sold for $2000, that multiple is 20x. So another building in Manhattan that generates $110 of profit would reasonably sell for somewhere in the ballpark of $2200.

Now, that’s an approximation of value. Like with most approximations, you can push the numbers one way or the other. For example, most buildings won’t sell for that exact multiple of 20x. In reality, it might be 18-22x. So when reporting your value to the tax appraiser, you recommend the 18x number. When reporting your value to the bank, you use the 22x number. Using the property with $100 profit, this would lead to a value of $1,800-$2,200.

Now, further, you might be able to report your expenses differently. For example, you might have another company you own that manages the building, and that company charges a 5% management fee. When you go to the bank to get a mortgage, you might offer to subordinate 2% of the management fee. This means that the priority of payments in the property would be first the 3% to the management company, then the mortgage payment, and then the remaining 2% to the management company. Because the bank is paid before the last 2%, they won’t include it in their underwriting, which means they’ll have a higher “profit” number. So maybe a bank shows a profit of $110.

Of course, when reporting the profit to the government, you want to include as many expenses as you legally can, so you include the full management fee. This means your reported profit would be $90. Now, combine these new profit numbers with the multiples, and you get a value range of 18x90=$1,620 to 22x110=$2,420. These numbers are obviously made up, but hopefully you can see how some changes here and there can lead to a relatively big difference. The changes I mentioned are legally defensible, since they could be evidenced by recent market data or because the changes were due to the bank’s underwriting standard. But giving different objective numbers (e.g. my property is simultaneously both 50% leased and 100% leased, which is impossible) definitely smells of fraud.

flapjackandcigarette
6
1 month ago

Now this is a quality comment.

Dane1414
3
1 month ago

Thanks!

Bri48322
13
1 month ago

There is a thing called book-tax differences. If you have cash right now, IRS wants a piece of the pie. But then there are revenues you haven’t received yet, and the IRS doesn’t want to tax you for money you don’t have. So things that you don’t get money for later or things you don’t pay until later get deferred, or moved, until next year when you can pay taxes or get a deduction on those items. Then, there are some things that are on the books that are never considered for taxes, like tax expense.

With buildings, property tax is paid based off the value of the building. So trump can say his building is worth 1 million, pay 20,000 in taxes, and then tell his investors it’s actually worth 5 million, and get a 1 million in stocks because they deemed that building to be valuable. SOX was made in 2002 to prevent publicly traded companies from doing this

ksiyoto
16
1 month ago

It would be a question of when did Trump take control of the building - that is the date he would be depreciating it from.

Murtagg
6
1 month ago

Typically depreciation of assets starts from point of purchase - not origination.

OmgTom
6
1 month ago

also, improvements are depreciated.

sthlmsoul
17
1 month ago

Without going into too much details the legitimate differences are typically related to revenue and expense recognition in addition to various tax credits and deductions. Generally, tax tends to be very focused of cash accounting whereas financial report is accrual based. Occupancy rates are not one of those things.

Kasoni
15
1 month ago

There can be differences. For example if the dates are different. People and companies move in and out of places. But I'm sure that isn't what is going on here.

Devil-sAdvocate
2
1 month ago

The article says fines are common instead of criminal charges. How often do you think the landlord gets in criminal trouble vs the accountant who creating the docs?

sarinonline
13
1 month ago

I guess that would depend on an investigation.

For example if it was one business owner, with one count, and he blamed the accountant and could show that he was giving the accountant accurate data. Then the accountant.

If it was one business owner, with multiple counts, especially if through multiple accountants, and the accountants could show they were using the data they were being given. Then the landlord / business owner.

If Trump was giving one set of figures to his accountant, and another set to the banks. Then he will be the one in trouble.

The thing here is that two sets of people, were given different figures, there will be a paper trail for that.

Which asks the question, if it wasn't Trump and instead was just his accountant, why has he fought so hard not to release them.

crkfljq
4
1 month ago

This is why my accountant and I communicate essentially exclusively via email. Both of us have a paper trail of all numbers and documents sent back and forth, including approvals and the like.

Apptubrutae
3
1 month ago

As a new business owner, I recently learned all about this.

It’s actually not just legitimate, but encouraged.

Accounting for taxes and generally accepted accounting practices are actually different.

How you handle depreciation and asset tracking is a huge one. You can in many cases depreciate an asset for tax purposes in one year, but if you did that on your non-tax books, it would not accurately reflect that you still have and use the asset, even if it’s depreciated for tax purposes.

You may also track accounts differently, with a more simplified version available for the IRS.

And plenty of businesses use accural accounting for their regular books and cash accounting for their tax books.

All totally legit. But at the end of the day the numbers really should match up. Rent revenue should be the same between two books, except for maybe minor differences, like if at the end of the year a bit of income got accrued early or late and shifted into the next year versus cash accounting.

ObjectiveEvidence
57
1 month ago

Just tell them the documents are from Soros and watch them start a lynch mob.

bautin
11
1 month ago

You could publish a CVS receipt and claim it's Barack Obama's original Kenyan birth certificate and there are groups of people who won't question it.

albatross-salesgirl
4
1 month ago

"10% off Grey Poupon!!? This is HIGH TREASON!"

EarthExile
9
1 month ago

It's because he's raped kids at parties with very important people

DeM0nFiRe
36
1 month ago

Lenders like to see a rising occupancy level as a sign of what they call “leasing momentum.” Sure enough, the company told a lender that 40 Wall Street had been 58.9% leased on Dec. 31, 2012, and then rose to 95% a few years later. The company told tax officials the building was 81% rented as of Jan. 5, 2013.

Well clearly that's just super good lease momentum, he increased leased space by about 30% in 6 days. It's cause he's such an excellent businessman. Very legal, very cool.

(yes that was a joke in case it wasn't obvious)

Duke_of_Moral_Hazard
11
1 month ago

he increased leased space by about 30% in 6 days

It's what realtors famously call the New Year's week rush, when all the cool kids are nursing hangovers and apartment hunting. You probably haven't heard of it.

malaria_and_dengue
7
1 month ago

What's with all these elitist snobs who've never seen the rush of uhauls in the snowy winter of NYC unloading their stuff into their new luxury apartments? Liberals are so out of touch with the common man it's despicable.

atomic_redneck
6
1 month ago

You have fraud-kebobs, fraud creol, fraud gumbo. There's pineapple fraud, lemon fraud, coconut fraud,

Who am I kidding. It IS just plain ol' fraud.

Heard_That
5
1 month ago

I took that to mean "multiple types" of fraud, not that she was weasel wording it. Who can say though. Idk if that's what you meant.

bishpa
6
1 month ago

Knowing Trump, both sets of books were false. He probably committed tax fraud and bank fraud.

Groty
3
1 month ago

Incoming "Everyone does it" defense from the spin crew.

CasanovaNova
1339
1 month ago

The funniest part is that anyone who has ever spent time within wealthy circles would have known from Day One that this was exactly how Trump kept himself alive. This is literally the most elementary form of fraud that any business person worth their salt avoids because it's just so God damn obvious and stupid.

What. A. Moron.

appleparkfive
500
1 month ago

Also, people in NYC have been yelling at the top of their lungs about how much of a piece of shit he is. Long before he got into politics. Just ripping people off, doing racist shit. It was all very well known.

biggmclargehuge
214
1 month ago

He didn't even win his own god damn state in the election, which I'm pretty sure he has made fun of some other candidate for in the past.

nomoregaming
130
1 month ago

He didn't win NYC. He didn't even get every vote in fucking Trump Tower... Only those trash-eaters in Staten Island voted for him.

GarbagePailGrrrl
67
1 month ago

Trash-eater here—I voted for Hillary!

OmniaCausaFiunt
21
1 month ago

Trash-eater here

username checks out.

sonofaresiii
17
1 month ago

Only those trash-eaters in Staten Island voted for him.

Yeah but we got 'em back in 2018. Always good to point out that change can happen if people get out and vote.

garf87
15
1 month ago

He's pretty disliked in the NY metro area for being a doucher, even prior the presidency

e22ddie46
15
1 month ago

Yep. I was watching the first few episodes of rescue me after Trump's election. There is multiple conversations about how is the worst scumbag.

StochasticLife
5
1 month ago

Rescue Me, the show about New York City Firefighters...that ended in September of 2011?

Edit: I'm dumb. The first few episodes were in 2004, but you were watching them after the election.

Cheetohkat
8
1 month ago

And no one would invest or partner with him bc he’d either fuck them over or lose all their money on the deal. Like all experts dispute his worth and say the only reason he could be that wealthy is wait for it.. dirty Russian money!

This same kind of mystery also surrounded Epstein’s fortune where no one really understood where the money came from but in Trump’s case, the Russia ties are obvious.

ChipsHanden
8
1 month ago

God Epstein pisses me off so much. Handed a teaching position at a prestigious boarding school to teach math (the Dean of which was none other than the father of current U.S. Attorney General Bill Barr), used his connections made at the school to get into "finance," and then was essentially gifted a lavish mansion to run his child sex ring from as he traveled the world in the utmost luxury, rubbing elbows with the absolute elite of the world. Then when he gets caught, he's just... let go? Gets like 9 months of WORK RELEASE (the sherrif's dept. who handled his sentence had a previously standing policy of never affording work release to sex offenders), and then gets right back at it? Furthermore, his partner in crime, Ghislaine Maxwell, is still fucking out there! No doubt using her father's Mossad connections to hide herself several miles under the Ural mountains.

I fucking hate that the conspiracy theory positing Epstein as a CIA asset makes so much goddamn sense. Absolutely would not put it beyond the same agency who flooded black communities with crack just to destabilize a democratically-elected government to also use a well connected sleazeball as a honeypot. I really don't know what's worse, forever hobbling black communities with drug addiction or state-sanctioned kidnapping and child sex slavery.

[deleted]
4
1 month ago

Yeah but how could anyone know? He said"fake news"!

[deleted]
207
1 month ago

[deleted]

jerkittoanything
411
1 month ago

The IRS has been routinely gutted by every Republican administration. Down to a third of their operating staff that they had during the Obama administration.

Makes it difficult to go after the massive money laundering types that will fight you in court, when you simply don't have the resources.

ballsd33p42
192
1 month ago

Exactly. That is why the IRS only goes after little people, they can’t afford to fight back.

DannyMThompson
129
1 month ago

They literally said this recently.

pourmeacab
52
1 month ago
ewokninja123
23
1 month ago

Also their taxes aren't as complicated so it's easier to find the shortfalls when they are there

mastaace12345
5
1 month ago

I'm not sure the exact number, but i believe it's something like 5:1 return on the cost if we were to give more IRS funding to go after tax cheats.

giveupsides
39
1 month ago

Makes it difficult to go after the massive money laundering types that will fight you in court

Like Trump?

jerkittoanything
44
1 month ago

Yes, but also keep in mind that our tax laws are really fucked up so there are ways to hide a lot of money legally.

With the comparisons of Trumps tax returns that were filed to the government and of his tax returns that were produced to lenders. There are some discrepancies. What amounts to fraud if he reported untrue income to the government, or a monstrous lawsuit if he misrepresented to the lender.

It'll be interesting to see because I doubt either set is genuine.

Bobby_Globule
7
1 month ago

There are financial guru types who find ways to cheat and hide the cheating -- these are some multimillion dollar per year geniuses. The IRS is outgunned big-time.

Criterion515
7
1 month ago

These are the kinds of people the IRS needs to hire, and pay well, to find and close these loopholes. Of course the administration needs to allow this to in the first place... in other words want the rich to actually pay their taxes. As that would more than offset the cost of said expensive people.

FakeWalterHenry
3
1 month ago

US Tax Law is literally so massive and expansive that no single human knows it in its entirety. It's been made bloated and cumbersome for the expressed purpose of running circles around it.

periplanar
39
1 month ago

I think that's another indication that he didn't really want to get elected, only to make a huge publicity stunt.

Crommulance
16
1 month ago

I think it was Putin's plan for him to run and he expected to lose just by being his assinine self, but rake in the publicity. I think he underestimated his buddy Puty's help, was hoping he would lose, so he didn't dig himself deeper with US authorities, and thats how we ended up soo fucked. Hopefully a court will follow the bread crumbs to the Russian money-laundering [only reasonable explanation for being able to bankrupt so many casinos] and this horrible nightmare will all soon end.

draggingitout
7
1 month ago

Super spacey beans here, I think Trump got sold out. I think Jr. and Manafort went behind his back to tip the election harder than Trump knew. That's the polling data they gave, that's DeVos's involvement (didn't her brother own a healthcare company of some form? Wasn't it [wildly] speculated that by plugging the Cambridge Analytica data, the polling data, and the healthcare data, a hyper targeting of propaganda could be achieved?), that's Kushner's devil building, that's Flynn's placement in the White House. If the end goal was the Middle East Grand Bargain (or Marshall Plan) Trump doesn't need to know about that to be considered a useful idiot to achieve it. Now the house of cards is tumbling because he is so much more idiot than useful.

It's literally the plot to Scandal.

banter_hunter
6
1 month ago

The real nightmare is yet to unfold. Our society is on life support, and we haven't paid the electricity bill for decades.

maxxcat2020
4
1 month ago

I doubt that, if there was no desire to win, there would have been no desire to cheat.

Redlar
10
1 month ago

When you live and breath cheating, you can't just turn it off, it's in his very bones (which exist, unlike the bone spurs).

He is his own stock. He would see that he wasn't being talked about as much, so he would rear his head, talk shit to get into the news cycle, then coast until the next time. Lather, rinse, repeat.

periplanar
3
1 month ago

I should have said that that's what I think happened at the start of his campaign. Surely when it was just him against Clinton his ego would make sure he would cheat his way to win.

e22ddie46
7
1 month ago

You would think if you spent your whole life as a crook, you would avoid the most glaring spotlight in the world.

Sapuk
5
1 month ago

Malignant narcissism.

beenies_baps
7
1 month ago

Yep. It couldn't be less sophisticated, or easier to spot. Which does rather beg the question - why wasn't it spotted earlier? Why does it take a journalist looking through publicly available records to find this?

VanceKelley
992
1 month ago

The guy who cheated on inheritance tax to avoid paying $400+ million owed on his father's estate cheated on his income tax? That guy?

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/10/02/us/politics/donald-trump-tax-schemes-fred-trump.html

The president has long sold himself as a self-made billionaire, but a Times investigation found that he received at least $413 million in today’s dollars from his father’s real estate empire, much of it through tax dodges in the 1990s.

e22ddie46
96
1 month ago

Fake news. As can be seen here he only inherited 400 million dollars (and Fred Trump's heirs collectively committed half a billion in tax fraud). He had to make at least 600 million to become a billionaire (totally didn't do that)

fox-mcleod
49
1 month ago

The best part is that a modest savings account and inflation would have got him there.

GusSawchuk
11
1 month ago

Yeah, he took on tons of risk to make less money. He could have just invested in the S&P 500 and he'd be a multi-billionaire.

aegon98
8
1 month ago

This is sarcasm right? Because you don't have to work to make 400mil into 1bil. Drop it into a mutual fund and you'll make it in under 15 years without a single drop of effort.

e22ddie46
5
1 month ago

Yes of course it was sarcasm lmao

Edit: to add, I was also saying he isn't a billionaire

aegon98
3
1 month ago

Trump supporters would say that completely seriously, so it's not super obvious

takingphotosmakingdo
23
1 month ago

So there were actually Three criminals in home alone two movie. Got it.

TobyFunkeNeverNude
4
1 month ago

Geez, don't forget Kevin.

gamerplays
4
1 month ago

Dont forget the other shady stuff. One of his properties was rent controlled. So his family started another "business". They bought things like water heaters and such, then sold it to the rental property for a huge markup (above market values), then used the fact that they sold themselves items they marked up themselves as why their costs were going up. Which in turn let them justify increasing rent more than what would normally be allowed for the rental property.

More-Like-a-Nonja
936
1 month ago

Holy shit, that's both tax fraud and bank fraud.

Both are federal felonies, and these definitely happened before he was president.

kamyu2
342
1 month ago

Well, it is possible one of the sets of numbers is the correct one making it either tax or bank fraud. But yeah, Trump being Trump, it is probably both.

sarinonline
113
1 month ago

If he was willing to falsify one set, he would have done both.

If he was gonna commit fraud he would be doing it against both sides.

Stealthy_Totoro
5
1 month ago

Both sides are good people?

sarinonline
4
1 month ago

What are you referring to ?

Both sides would be, the IRS and the Banks.

Stealthy_Totoro
10
1 month ago

Was just trying to use his 'good people on both sides' meme and failed, dont mind me.

sarinonline
3
1 month ago

All good mate.

SimplyQuid
19
1 month ago

The way the Republicans are running the show, that might as well be true

quoth_tthe_raven
5
1 month ago

Can't wait to see what bullshit excuse he tweets out. I'm sure his base with eat it up as fact. Witchhunt! /s

azflatlander
25
1 month ago

Federal, smederal, Billy has his back.

And you don’t think they are not on-going?

[deleted]
6
1 month ago

[deleted]

[deleted]
815
1 month ago

[deleted]

turinturambar81
281
1 month ago

Yeah. The real dirt is going to be the LLC stuff, which can then be traced back with the work being done on the Panama Papers. I would bet any amount there is Russian government and Russiam mob (but I repeat myself) money/debt in those returns in such a way that makes it obvious that Trump knows the source, like a close associate being on the board for one of those organizations, or many of them.

sarah8
51
1 month ago

I mean, don't we already know his Deutsche Bank was cosigned by Russian oligarchs?

neecho235
17
1 month ago

Not necessarily. Those claims were walked back by CNN.

TheCouncil1
40
1 month ago

Is there still work being done on the Panama Papers? I feel like the only time I hear about the Panama Papers is when someone mentions that no one is talking about the Panama Papers.

i_sigh_less
3
1 month ago

Was that about money that uncle sam was not getting a cut of? Because if so, I doubt it would have just petered out.

Former_Trump_Aide
96
1 month ago

Pretty sure the generals just gave him an old Xbox 360 controller and told him never to ever press Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start

You_Owe_Me_A_Coke
321
1 month ago

I hope not. The last thing this nation needs is another Contra affair.

ozurr
38
1 month ago

I'm going to be cackling over this one for the rest of the day.

ThrowawayBlast
14
1 month ago

Seriously though, in all the decades we had nukes, some upper level military types DID wonder about the possibility of an insane lunatic gaining the Oval Office.

e22ddie46
7
1 month ago

They considered a military coup against Kennedy during the missile crisis

MNIHD219
16
1 month ago

But instead he was assassinated by the world's most suspicious gunman after making enemies with America's terrorism wing.

Terryfink
9
1 month ago

Can you imagine if one of the Kennedys had been murdered for political gain?

UpUpDnDnLRLRBAstart
16
1 month ago

You rang?

DamnJaywalkingIguana
9
1 month ago

Ha, I hope they gave him the original Xbox controller - The Duke...just to make him more self-conscious about the size of his hands.

-misanthroptimist
262
1 month ago

There's a reason SDNY called him Individual 1. The guy is a crook. Were he not President (through the dereliction of duty by the Electoral College), he would have been indicted, tried, and convicted already. Really, the guy is a crook.

ballsdeepinthematrix
51
1 month ago

Why don't they do background checks on presidental candidates?

They should sweep the candidate full history to make sure he can't be comprised in the future or to see if morally he should be fit.

-misanthroptimist
44
1 month ago

Yep. I was a complete nobody in the Army. However, my job did require a security clearance. I later learned from friends that they had been personally interviewed about me. One would think that a Presidential candidate would at least be checked out to make sure he wasn't, oh say a foreign asset of Russia.

(Oh, and thanks to my friends for lying for me way back then.)

Pi_Arc
106
1 month ago

Step 1: solicit a small charitable loan from your father...

IamPlatycus
44
1 month ago

Step two: many crimes

Step three: ?

Step four: profit!

Step five: prison?

Sweat_Onion
13
1 month ago

Step 6 is prison. Step 5 is president, its a tricky step it usually requires alot of points in charisma, but, there are ways around this.

Crommulance
20
1 month ago

Laundering is the only plausible explanation for all the bankrupt casinos .

kmg_90
14
1 month ago

Too much "winning" happening at the casino..

gerry_mandering_50
32
1 month ago

Is there a way for a middle class family like mine to do the same sort of accounting

Depends. There is a needs test:

  • Are you in the Republican party?

  • Are you friends with, or have power over, the son of a sitting Supreme Court justice?

  • Does the Attorney General of the USA have a job or not because of your kindness?

  • Did you recently spend significant money at a business of someone who does meet the above criteria?

OneTermTrump
236
1 month ago

I wonder how much of this involves his kiddies? Since some of this happened in 2017, Junior and Eric (and Ivanka?) would have been the 'official' managers of the business.

Eleanor_Abernathy
214
1 month ago
I_W_M_Y
117
1 month ago

Bribe...lets call it what it is a bribe.

lakkas00789
22
1 month ago

Sorry, but this country is a banana republic...

[deleted]
15
1 month ago

[deleted]

banter_hunter
4
1 month ago

Run by banana Republicans.

jonnyballs
6
1 month ago

Dropped charges can be picked back up, yes?

e22ddie46
3
1 month ago

No collusion no obstruction?

Crommulance
3
1 month ago

He will throw them under the bus if possible. To demonstrate how MUCH he cares for his son, take this story his son told a reporter one time: DJT [sr] gave his son [Jr] a watch with the initials DJT engraved on tha back for Christmas .. the exact same one his son had given him the year before .. Caring father right there. I misread your 1st question as "I wonder how much of this involves kiddies?" and thought you meant Epstein horribleness. Hope they find more evidence he left behind. I'm sure he videotaped or kept detailed records of all teh scumbags he associated with.

laputan6
184
1 month ago

Cosby went to jail at 81, hopefully it will be earlier for Trump.

Ricochet888
64
1 month ago

I just hope he's not able to keep prolonging the criminal cases when he's out. We all know the rich have a different legal system, I just don't want him to spend the rest of his life a free man while his lawyers keep filing every single action they can to keep him out.

pourmeacab
23
1 month ago

Lucky for us he's not rich.

Ricochet888
20
1 month ago

Maybe not actual billionaire rich, but he still probably has a shit ton of money.

lurking_downvote
12
1 month ago

The presidency has certainly made him and his family richer.

e22ddie46
6
1 month ago

He is at Cosby levels of sexual harassment allegations

facemelt
3
1 month ago

Let's hope it's good ol' New York State jail too, not Club Fed.

ColonelBigsby
79
1 month ago

ProPublica obtained the property tax documents using New York’s Freedom of Information Law. The documents were public because Trump appealed his property tax bill for the buildings every year for nine years in a row, the extent of the available records. We compared the tax records with loan records that became public when Trump’s lender, Ladder Capital, sold the debt on his properties as part of mortgage-backed securities.

chukomoo
10
1 month ago

Ahhh, good old MBS

Pl4w1w
4
1 month ago

Mohammad Bin Salman?
Mortgage Backed Securities?

What an ominous acronym.

Kengos
82
1 month ago

Hey all - let me know if you have questions for the reporters on this project - happy to relay them.

roissy_37
15
1 month ago

No questions, just my thanks for doing meaningful journalism. I worry whether democracy is even possible if this kind of work isn't being done. Great job.

GreenTSimms
10
1 month ago

Q: Are you aware of anyone pursuing this issue criminally? Feds? State?

cilinsdale
10
1 month ago

why is this at the bottom of the thread lol

kkaavvbb
7
1 month ago

Who is “the wealthy German family” that owns the one property?

Can the reporters look at other properties, like Florida’s? Or were the loan stuff only available for properties in nyc?

Is the one property being rented out to trump or one of his businesses?

Are they going to pursue this further?

This is awesome journalism and the article was really well done, so great job to the reporters!

The_pun_fart
4
1 month ago

Has anyone in your team attempted to secure Epstein's financial records? Curious if he and Trump had any "offshore" dealings.

water_we
5
1 month ago

This should be higher. I’m sure there are a lot of questions.

ExStepper
3
1 month ago

Really? Ok...will this have any bearing on what his opposition might be able to do/conclude (impeachment issue aside)? In other words, what difference(s) might this make for you, lawmakers, or even the House? (TY for offering!)

[deleted]
61
1 month ago

[deleted]

nrq
9
1 month ago

A great analogy, that's exactly how this looks to me.

harveytaylorbridge
24
1 month ago

2021.

JamesKPolkEsq
56
1 month ago

Well, this just got very interesting...

Ivanka and Don Jr. are in charge of the Trump organization as of 2017.

They are not immune from prosecution.

There are New York state taxes that have been falsified.

State crimes can not be pardoned by the president.

How does that phrase go? I can never remember...

"Lock Her Up"

or is it

"Lock Him Up"?

JustA90sKid
17
1 month ago

Why not both?

KurnolSanders
7
1 month ago

Lock 'em up - applies to anyone and everyone, singular or multiple!

BalletTech
46
1 month ago

How come reporters can ferret this information out and yet the government can't?

Oh, that's right the government goes only goes after the poor and the middle class. They leave the rich alone.

rlmartin85
10
1 month ago

And that is why reporters are ‘enemies of the people’

PrawnOfTheDevil
12
1 month ago

Reporters are the enemy of criminals. Trump is a criminal. Reporters are the enemy to Trump.

Ra_In
6
1 month ago

The government can't just pick someone and go after them (at least not unless they're corrupt). Authorities need to be tipped off - whether by an individual noticing suspicious behavior, or a regulatory agency throwing a flag.

We need new regulations designed to catch fraud like this, along with enough funding for regulatory agencies to do a thorough job.

Satevo462
44
1 month ago

I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.

boscodictiosaur
36
1 month ago

I remember reading this last year in NYT and would suggest everyone else read it too if you haven’t already.

riazrahman
23
1 month ago

It is absolutely unbelievable to me that this story got swept under the rug. How every Democrat from AOC to Tulsi Gabbard isn't screaming about Donald Trump defrauding the American people out of hundreds of millions of dollars, I just don't know...

TheHomersapien
4
1 month ago

His MAGA slaves dont care. They want to he abused. They enjoy it. So when they see that Trump is ripping them off while at the same time he is pushing an agenda that further benefits the rich at their expense, well, they cheer him on.

[deleted]
31
1 month ago

[deleted]

simpersly
4
1 month ago

Trump isn't the only politician hiding what's in their taxes.

Lowe0
4
1 month ago

Congress does not administer New York property tax law. That ultimately falls to the New York Attorney General, who no doubt is already on top of this.

Caraes_Naur
30
1 month ago

The Trump Organization has always been an elaborate shell game.

Injest_alkahest
24
1 month ago

Trump is a fraud????

No, it’s the math that’s trying to make him look bad.

Impeach math.

IndieBlind
21
1 month ago

Seems to me that he just made up numbers depending on how much Russian money he was being told to launder.

particle409
21
1 month ago

I work in real estate, and everybody does a *version* of this. You give different valuations of the property based on different formulas. If the lender/government asks for the figures that make up that valuation, you do have to give them honest answers.

> For instance, Trump told the lender that he took in twice as much rent from one building as he reported to tax authorities during the same year, 2017. He also gave conflicting occupancy figures for one of his signature skyscrapers, located at 40 Wall Street.

That's definitely fraud. This is the difference between staging good lighting for a dating profile pic, and using a picture of yourself from 20 years/100 lbs ago.

AuditorTux
6
1 month ago

Eh, maybe not. Depends on how the bank wanted things accounted for - cash versus accrual basis.

Just to keep things simple, say a new tenant had to put down two months rent. In accrual basis, you have not earned that second month's rent so it is not revenue in the first month - you put it as a liability and then show it as rent in the second month. On a cash basis, you show two months rent in the first month and zero in the second. This is basically a timing difference between the two methods.

Now, to make it even more complicated, sometimes banks will have you account for things in even more strange ways - for example, when I took out the loan that started my firm, I got to treat some cash outlays differently than I would for accrual basis (edit: instead of having to report as capital items, I could expense fully. Other expenses I got to disallow as start up costs and other one-time items). So it was a pseudo-accrual basis financial statements. And then there are tax basis financials. And between them all are legitimate temporary and permanent differences.

So unless they release the full documents and we get some clarity on how they were all reported and the bases/treatments required of the various reporting entities, its really impossible to know if this was fraud or not.

Tr3sp4ss3r
20
1 month ago

No one is surprised, not even Repubs. The strangest thing to me is that the red kool-aid drinkers will immediately find a way to justify the fraud and make it ok. This denial runs deep. Before the election a former Command Sergeant Major of the 101st Screaming Eagles told me integrity was not a requirement for leadership when asked if he would let his kids behave like Trump towards Women. This kind of Blindness baffles me. I'm absolutely certain this man spent many hours lecturing recruits about how to behave with integrity. Probably sent a few to KP duty for not listening.... but, Red Kool-aid! I am so very glad the generation driving this political train wreck will be too old for politics soon.

yephesingoldshire
20
1 month ago

I own a small manufacturing business, and over the years I’ve learned a lot about what you are legally allowed to do in order to try to mitigate your tax liability. One easy one our CPA firm reccomended, for example, is filing on cash basis vs. accrual. Basically you pay taxes on the actual cash profit as it stands at the end of the year. So, if your net income is, say, $100k at the end of the fiscal year, you can go out on the last day and spend 100k on inventory, reducing your net income to 0. Now, this only prolongs paying taxes, because assuming you’ll sell that inventory in the next year, you’ll basically start the year with $100k in net income. Sure, you could just keep doing this every year, but eventually you will pay your taxes. I was trying to avoid paying taxes for at least a few years because we really needed to use the profit dollars as working capital to help grow the company (vs costly borrowing).

Accrual is usually how I like to look at our books because it gives me a good idea of where our profitability is even though we have product at many stages of the selling process. It’s also better for me when talking with lenders to showcase the business on accrual, since we will always have AR, AP, and work in process balances that change every single day. Whether we cash customers checks or not, the net income stays the same. Accrual views Accounts receivable the same as cash.

So, those are some very basic legal differences you might see. However, fudging rental rates is not the same thing as what I described above.

-Kerosun-
16
1 month ago

I was trying to avoid paying taxes for at least a few years because we really needed to use the profit dollars as working capital to help grow the company (vs costly borrowing).

This is exactly why those tax exemptions are in place: To encourage businesses to grow.

If you had to pay taxes on the year for the $100k EVEN if you spent $100K on inventory (that would be taxed on purchase through sales tax, and then in the following years it might incur a tax liability in other ways depending on what was purchased with the $100k), then it would stifle growth in a lot of small to medium businesses.

[deleted]
13
1 month ago

[deleted]

d_mcc_x
14
1 month ago

Why do all these reporters try to be fancy and veiled with this shit. It’s fucking fraud.

edk128
16
1 month ago

No he's just repeatedly "inconsistent" with numbers that financially benefit him by accident. Oopsie, misrepresented my income by a factor of two again.

We all do it, right? It's how I avoid paying income tax.

afcbaumer
10
1 month ago

Trump when asked if Rudy G was still his attorney: "well I dont know I havent spoken to Rudy, I spoke to him yesterday briefly, uh hes a very good attorney. and he has been my attorney yeah sure. Cant make this shit up

Hows that for fraud?

Gcblaze
16
1 month ago

LOL! How many other Rich frauds hiding out there?. You will never know because it's "Too Hard" to audit them!. Right IRS?

AnonymousMaleZero
3
1 month ago

That would be the real philanthropic endeavor if this generation. Tax people working on rich audits with a 10-20% cut of whatever discrepancies they find.

Ayahuascafly
16
1 month ago

“versions of fraud”.

Or just fraud.

Doctor_Amazo
17
1 month ago

So... fraud.

clickmagnet
13
1 month ago

I can tell you the response now on r/asktrumpsupporters.

“If you’d ever been an accountant for a Fortune 500 company, as I have, you’d understand this is completely normal. All well-run business do versions of this.”

Satanus9001
14
1 month ago

Well what a surprise! Who would have thought?!

SnarklessSeattle
12
1 month ago

Just make shit up financials is fraud.

McNinja_MD
11
1 month ago

Weird. It's almost as if the known serial liar who bragged that not paying taxes "makes him smart"... lied to get around paying his taxes!

crowdsourced
10
1 month ago

We knew this after Cohen’s testimony and AOC’s questioning of Cohen.

perpetual_student
3
1 month ago

Right? Cohen outlined this strategy pretty clearly during his testimony.

Pomp_N_Circumstance
9
1 month ago

Fabulous reporting. Fraud. Plain and simple.

mxpauwer
8
1 month ago

"50 Versions of Fraud" sounds like the titel of Donald Trump's next biography.

clamberrypie
9
1 month ago

At some point a court has to force his accounting firm to turn over the returns to the State of New York. Every decision has gone in their favor and he has lost every appeal. I don't know what the rules are, but it seems there has to be a point at which a judge will order his team to comply with investigators. As news like this trickles it only weakens whatever weak argument he makes. He's already claimed- and been denied- the argument that a sitting president cannot be investigated. The minute his taxes are handed to investigators this whole grotesque charade will be blown open. I really wonder how his sycophants will respond to the hard fact that he is indebted to some of the most notorious mobsters in the world. I don't think they'll have a problem with it honestly. This is all just so very fucked up.

Starstriker
6
1 month ago

What the article describes is just the tip of the iceberg.

feignapathy
8
1 month ago

And this is why he doesn't want his taxes in the hands of investigators. He doesn't want people to be able to compare the information he shows the government and the information he shows his lenders.

humanprogression
5
1 month ago

Trump’s entire life is fraud.

notcarlton
6
1 month ago

Making a company look more profitable to lenders is what Billy McFarland went to jail for.

humphreydog
8
1 month ago

Another example of one rule for the rich and powerful and another for the common man.

tax laws are fooked - even when they are enforced there are so many loopholes and "legal" mechanisms to avoid paying its way beyond funny.

here's a thing - all income is taxed at standard rates - no exceptions and no loopholes. Doesn't matter where the income was earned ( inheritance, corporate, donated, WORKED FOR) . Only allowable write offs are for product development and research. Get caught cheating - all assets seized. Pull yourself back up by your bootstraps - after all you are the elite and deserve your life of wealth and priviliege. Shouldn't take you too long ;)

sounds simple cos it is - far too many fingers in too many pies for it to happen though.

A whole army of accountants and lawyers will be put out of business. Boo fookin hoo. I can see us all crying into our coffee at the prospect - well the lawyers and accountants anyway.

Couple that with rooting out greed and corruption in government and some semblance of sanity might possibly return, along with enough income from taxes raised to address many of the social and infrastructure problems.

DownshiftedRare
6
1 month ago

versions of fraud

Rare pepe collectors, prepare to start chasing exclusive versions of fraud.

data1989
4
1 month ago

Didn't the New York Times run a story on this a couple of years ago, and no-one seemed to give a shit?

edit: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/10/02/us/politics/donald-trump-tax-schemes-fred-trump.html

edk128
3
1 month ago

Iirc it's too late for charges against him for that. So his supporters get to pretend he was just taking advantage of clever loopholes, not bypassing millions in estate taxes

unbanableanimal
8
1 month ago

In reality we just call this "cooking the books" and its illegal.

Azrolicious
5
1 month ago

Isn’t this exactly what Cohen said was happening?

Uberzwerg
6
1 month ago

I would love to see him go down like Capone - imprisoned because of tax fraud.

Henhouse808
6
1 month ago

And the man who cheated against the country to get out of paying his fair share cheated his way into the White House. Is anyone surprised?

Presently_Absent
8
1 month ago

Funniest part out of all of this is that he doesn't even own his buildings!! Columbus circle is just the commercial units, 40 wall street is just a name and leasing rights

And if he can't even turn a profit on that measly amount... He has seriously overblown his net worth

darkmatterjesus
6
1 month ago

It seems like Trump could start a fast food chain where he takes a shit and sells it as a sandwich and so many people would eat there everyday.

the3hound
4
1 month ago

Moscow Mitch, first in line for that shit burger.

OrangeSlicer
6
1 month ago

So Michael Cohen was right.

Who’s going to rub Republican noses in it??

elcabeza79
6
1 month ago

Oh, so in other words, Michael Cohen told the truth when testifying under oath to Congress.

I wonder if he also told the truth about the crime he's sitting in prison for - paying off a porn actress to be quiet about the Republican nominee for President at the behest of that very same nominee sometimes known as Individual #1.

I wonder if justice has been served when a lawyer is convicted of committing a crime for his client, but the client isn't charged with the same crime?

[deleted]
5
1 month ago

[deleted]

PinkSky211
6
1 month ago

No shit.

Kyooko
3
1 month ago

It will be quite entertaining if Trump was finally done for tax evasion.

If they can't impeach him for treason, let the IRS have a go.

AskAboutFent
7
1 month ago

Friendly reminder- New York State now 100% has the smoking gun. The day he leaves office New York will be pressing state charges.

Ain't no pardoning state charges donnie. You're gonna sit in prison.

OptimoussePrime
3
1 month ago

Donny Smallhands: Fraud Guarantee

JENGA_THIS
4
1 month ago

Basically what Michael Cohen testified to.

ProcrastinatorL
5
1 month ago

coming in as a surprise to literally not a single person at all

accidentalfist
5
1 month ago

Republicans won't care. They will have some stupid excuse as always. They will never turn from their love of tyranny

Amused-Observer
7
1 month ago

Fascism*

Congrajulations
5
1 month ago

it’S cAlLeD bEiNg A gOoD bUSiNeSs MaN

swishandswallow
4
1 month ago

Isn't that exactly why Joe "The Juice" Giudice from New Jersey Housewives went to prison for a couple of years?

meltedsheetmetal
5
1 month ago

I saw the headline and thought maybe he just took more write offs on his taxes and thought, well, everybody does that. Then, I read the first paragraph and saw that he just straight up made up the revenue and occupancy numbers in his hotel. Yeah, that's text book fraud, not a version of it.

CrabbyAbbie
4
1 month ago

All elected officials should have to reveal their tax returns.

redgreenapple
6
1 month ago

A crook and a con artist. The frustrating thing is none of this has any effect on the brainwashed deranged trump supporters. Zero effect.

I hear about Biden and Biden’s son doing something that may be legal but sounds unethical and it changes my perspective.

I hear about Warren’s political history and foreign policy and it changes my perspective.

I read about Obama’s failures to appoint more judges when he had congress and it upset me and frustrated me, my perspective changed.

These clowns seriously take ALL information in about their fat fucking crook of a hero and immediately disregard it. Bizarre.

Crims0n412
4
1 month ago

It looks like Michal Cohen was telling the truth, who would have thought.

AuditorTux
3
1 month ago

Has anyone been able to find the actual documents they're referencing?

Context can mean a lot. Take the insurance items they mentioned:

For example, insurance costs in 2017 were listed as $744,521 in tax documents and $457,414 in loan records.

In the preview of the video in the file, you can see this in more detail. It shows:

Insurance (annual) $744,521

For one record (which the preceeding quote says is the tax document and it looks to be it) and then

Property Insurance $457,414

For the other (the lending document per the first quote).

Well, I might be able t quickly explain the difference between the two - the tax document probably contains all insurance payments (property, workers comp, liability, etc) while the other is only property taxes. That is, the second is a subset of the first.

The way to test this would be to see what other line items are on the lending document and whatever other supporting documents there are. Given the lending document has the heading "Operating Expenses", I bet there is a section for "Non-Operating Expenses" (that is, expenses not related to the operation of the enterprise but incurred, such as accounting, legal, etc). That's where some of the other insurance expenses might be. If all those together equal $744k... then its fully explained.

So... back to my initial question - does anyone have the documents themselves?

CurryMustard
4
1 month ago

The New York Times said this a year ago and has proof but nobody seems to care

President Trump participated in dubious tax schemes during the 1990s, including instances of outright fraud, that greatly increased the fortune he received from his parents, an investigation by The New York Times has found.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/10/02/us/politics/donald-trump-tax-schemes-fred-trump.html

mwhelan182
4
1 month ago

Ugh no! This is the issue, it isn't "versions of fraud".

It's fucking FRAUD. Plaster it on papers and TV's across the country, and stop giving this useless sack of cum more wiggle room to be able to talk his insane followers into believing that its all trickery and political bullshit!

bicks236
6
1 month ago

Color me surprised. He's a tax cheat.

chaucer345
5
1 month ago

So... Obviously he has violated piles of tax laws, no?

Fariic
5
1 month ago

Only reason you want to keep anyone from looking into your taxes is because you’re committing tax fraud. Full stop.

Graphics_Nerd
5
1 month ago

Ah...so witch sets of books are real?

Is this bank fraud or tax evasion?

Either way! Both are criminal!

mn_aspie
6
1 month ago

The discrepancies made the buildings appear more profitable to the lender — and less profitable to the officials who set the buildings’ property tax

It's either bank fraud, tax fraud, or both. Why does our media continue to dance around asserting facts? They aren't mis-statements when they follow a pattern of deception over the course of several years. They aren't prepared by people using HR-block online who are ignorant of tax code, or bank laws--Trump hires accountants and attorneys and "asks" them to cook the books. We have the IRS on record saying it's too expensive to investigate rich people, we all know the playbook here, just because it's happening in plain sight doesn't reduce its illegality.

TheMaStif
5
1 month ago

Please, please, please let Trump be the next Al Capone. Nothing sticks to the guy so let's bring him down with his tax fraud!

RadioMelon
5
1 month ago

OOPSIE DAISY someone finally saw Trump's tax returns.

Guess it doesn't matter if he appeals it to a court or not, now.

vividimaginer
4
1 month ago

And honestly at this point, this would barely make a blip at the bottom of the pile.

Molotova
4
1 month ago

also check out the Trump Inc podcast about this, on your favorite podcast platform.

amapofthecat7
4
1 month ago

And likely no-one would have looked into this if he hadn't run for president. That is both hilarious and terrifying.

Narrator_Voice_Over
3
1 month ago

This info should help persuade Judges to reveal Trump’s income taxes.

mrbigglessworth
4
1 month ago

This should surprise exactly no one.

mothgra87
3
1 month ago

Perfectly legal and totally cool fraud.

Mysoulisdogshift
3
1 month ago

Good, can we get to the good part where he cries in front of a camera as he’s being led away to a armored vehicle.

jakegh
4
1 month ago

Great to finally see hard evidence of recent crimes. These run up to 2017 so he can be indicted whether he leaves office in 2020 or 2024.

Sideways_X1
4
1 month ago

Anyone rmember what that former RNC finance chair Michael Cohen said during his testimony?

jakegh
4
1 month ago

Difference is that was an accusation, admittedly one under oath, while this is actual hard evidence.

PlayfulIllithid
5
1 month ago

So short version: tax fraud, and blatant tax fraud, and outright fraud. It’s the trump family tradition. He goes to jail. No more second set of laws for rich and connected elites.

lionheart-1010
3
1 month ago

Does this surprise anyone? At all? The guy literally bragged about how little tax hes paid and called himself smart for it. The way you do that is to misrepresent your earnings/value/holdings etc.

object_FUN_not_found
4
1 month ago

No shit, eh?

AndyOfTop5CamSites
3
1 month ago

Trump committed tax fraud. Is anyone really surprised? I mean, he even bragged about it. How is this news?

gerry_mandering_50
3
1 month ago

"What are you going to do about it?"

-- narcissists

gibswim75
3
1 month ago

If this is true, why is it not the headline on every news outlet???

[deleted]
5
1 month ago

[deleted]

willflameboy
3
1 month ago

“It really feels like there’s two sets of books — it feels like a set of books for the tax guy and a set for the lender,”

Wow, why does this feel so familiar.

Eurynom0s
3
1 month ago

Very legal and very cool. Totally clears the President. Thank you!

SpaceAdventureCobraX
5
1 month ago

And they only got Al Capone on tax evasion

ZarosGuardian
3
1 month ago

Then why the fuck aren't they doing something about it? Even the President isn't able to run from the IRS.

wrinkledpenny
3
1 month ago

He’ll just claim executive privilege since he seems to say it applies to everything. And if this ends up in front of a judge he’ll appeal all the way to the Supreme Court.

SCWickedHam
3
1 month ago

I always assumed he had too much to risk by actually taking office. That running for office was for publicity and that he never wanted to win. I guess once he started gaining momentum his ego couldn’t be checked and he won’t accept counsel. No surprise a real estate mogul has cheated on his taxes. Surprised he didn’t think it would be a point of weakness.

Homaosapian
3
1 month ago

Does it really take an expert to call number fudging fraud?

mrcoorg
3
1 month ago

I don't see this trending on Twitter? Why is that? On the front page on Reddit....

snsdreceipts
3
1 month ago

AOC literally went over this months ago. Haven't we always known Trump was a fraud?

CountrySax
3
1 month ago

Grifters Paradise