[Spoilers]One thing that makes me sad about Jorah Mormont
36945 upvotes
2838 comments
Achilles982
5 days ago

He died thinking that Daenerys was a truly good person. He once told to her

"You have a gentle heart. You would not only be respected and feared, you would be loved. Someone who can rule and should rule. Centuries come and go without a person like that coming into the world. There are times when I look at you and I still can’t believe you’re real."

Now that I think about it, I'm almost glad he died so he couldn't see what Deanerys did, what she turned out to be.

EDIT: TY for the gold anonymous stranger

[Spoilers]One thing that makes me sad about Jorah Mormont

He died thinking that Daenerys was a truly good person. He once told to her

"You have a gentle heart. You would not only be respected and feared, you would be loved. Someone who can rule and should rule. Centuries come and go without a person like that coming into the world. There are times when I look at you and I still can’t believe you’re real."

Now that I think about it, I'm almost glad he died so he couldn't see what Deanerys did, what she turned out to be.

EDIT: TY for the gold anonymous stranger

UWillFearMyLaserFace
15496
5 days ago

Jorah served her well and deserved to die thinking only the best of her. It's a mercy he's dead as this would shatter him

rachaelpunk
6805
5 days ago

I don’t think he would have let this happen. He would have fought her on this, even if she eventually killed him.

Great character.

BuckNZahn
5499
5 days ago

-"Khalesi, I don't think you are doing the right thing"

-"Shut up Jorah"

-"k, sorry my queen, i love you"

Junkstar
2561
5 days ago

"Khalesi, they say it is unwise to make large purchases or big decisions after suffering trauma."

"who says that?"

"they"

fivekilometer22
1585
5 days ago

"But guacamole will cost extra, Khaleesi."

Rommie557
698
5 days ago

It is known!

pipsdontsqueak
229
5 days ago

But it's my guacamole and I want it now!!!

Rommie557
204
5 days ago

If you have a structured settlement but you need cash now.....

crazydoc2008
135
5 days ago

What if I have a structured settlement AND I got mesothelioma?

Rommie557
104
5 days ago

It depends. Do you also have a vaginal mesh?

DrBlotto
7
5 days ago

Call the Iron Bank, 877 cash now!

entropicexplosion
4
5 days ago

These are the comments that let you know you’re not alone in the world.

I_GAME_N_STUFF
48
5 days ago

Call 877-GUACAMOLE-NOW!

TheGreatZarquon
7
5 days ago

"I have a plain burrito, and I need guac now!"

"Call J.G. Wentworth, 877-GUAC-NOW!"

Geekqueen15
7
5 days ago

877-GUAC-NOW!!!

MNGirlStuckInTX
221
5 days ago

Lemon instead of lime? You savage beast! ;)

SpeculationMaster
187
5 days ago

fucking dothraki and their bootleg guac.

MNGirlStuckInTX
38
5 days ago

His user name implies we may get a few more surprises in our guacamole.

luv2fit
5
5 days ago

MUTHAFUKKIN BOOTLEG GUAC!

detroit_dickdawes
73
5 days ago

Bell pepper instead of jalapeños...

iamthegraham
29
5 days ago

Serranos or go home.

detroit_dickdawes
5
5 days ago

Not gonna argue that point. I like it with Fresnos as well they’re just super expensive.

Bchavez_gd
97
5 days ago

I was more worried about the bell pepper.

MNGirlStuckInTX
38
5 days ago

Yeah, ewwww.

Richard_Fist
5
5 days ago

Just remember, RGOGSH

A red thing, like tomatoes, red bell pepper, etc

A green thing like cilantro, green bell pepper, a red bell pepper painted green

An oniony thing like shallots, yellow onion, or a red bell pepper shaped like onion

A garlicky thing like garlic cloves, garlic powder, or garlic in the shape of garlic

A sweet thing like honey or brown sugar

And a hot thing like peppers, cayenne, or star matter

Blindman84
18
5 days ago

This made me laugh harder than I care to admit!

F0REM4N
248
5 days ago

It is known!

Tackle3erry
135
5 days ago

WWJD: What would Jorah do?

warpstrikes
84
5 days ago

“A wise man once said.”

receptiveblocks
122
5 days ago

"The 7 Kingdoms are gonna roll me"

Mphineas
103
5 days ago

"I ain't the sharpest sword in the North"

youworthlessass
76
5 days ago

In da norf.

HighComs
21
5 days ago

Spoken like a true southerner...

HootandRally
13
5 days ago

He was lookin kinda Hodor

Lincolns_Hat
8
5 days ago

With the corpses of the Umbers

In the shape of a spiral on the castle wall

khonsu9339
7
5 days ago

Well, the dragons start coming and they don't stop coming. Bow to the queen? You'll still see the fire coming.

Generic_comments
71
5 days ago

I ain't the most valyrian dagger in the armory

warpstrikes
75
5 days ago

She was looking kind of dumb with a finger in her bum,

steve_youngblood
94
5 days ago

And a seven-pointed star on her forehead

erftonz
83
5 days ago

well the winter starts coming and it won't stop coming

Imapringlesboy
31
5 days ago

Why u hurting me feels bro

Echo_are_one
78
5 days ago

I don't think he would have backed down so easily. He had quite a thick skin.

D-Sleezy
71
5 days ago

Yeah. Especially when he had greyscale.

SazNoop
14
5 days ago

Big Sammy T fixed that though

KillerKittenInPJs
25
5 days ago

Jorah convinced her to change her course in the past. He's her White Knight and she would have listened to him.

FlyLikeATachyon
14
5 days ago

I think you’re confusing Jorah Mormont with Jon Snow.

Hi_Im_A
8
5 days ago

One of his last scenes was him pushing back about her treatment of Tyrion, and her listening, because he's always been able to get through to her better than most people.

JohnnyPumpkins
5
5 days ago

"Sorry can't hear you over the sound of me being 500 ft in the sky on a dragon"

Kinmuan
722
5 days ago

Or I mean, is this part of the character development?

She talked about how she's lost everything that was meaningful.

She lost Jorah. Her children. Missandei. She lost one husband, left behind a man that loved her, and now has been spurned by another.

It's stacking one thing on top of another. Maybe with Jorah still there it doesn't happen. Because she's losing all the things that anchor her.

MyNameIsNico
546
5 days ago

Yeah I think if Jorah survives The Long Night, he may convince Dany to allow the armies to rest instead of leaving right away and possibly avoid the ambush altogether. Jorah's death was just another domino in the path to Dany's downfall; remove that domino and maybe you prevent the ones after it from falling.

TrixieVanSickle
137
5 days ago

Exactly! Plus, Dany lamented that she had no love in Westeros. No one looked at her the way they looked at Jon. Had Jorah lived, Dany would have still had love and warmth from someone. After Jon told Dany about his true lineage, he began to pull away from her because of their relation. Dany knew Jorah loved her and he knew that she didn't love him back the way he wished, but he loved her anyway. If she'd had that light in the darkness that was beginning to consume her, things might have been different.

STRiPESandShades
32
5 days ago

Oh man. She might have turned to him for comfort and finally ended up with him.

dkfgo
13
5 days ago

Eh, in that case he's better off dead.

jacobspartan1992
9
5 days ago

Meanwhile Varys just sits there watching her be isolated and doesn't say hi. Instead he plots against her and gets scorched.

uniqueguy263
56
5 days ago

So because Sansa didn’t bow down to her immediately, she killed 500,000 random people

LegendReborn
47
5 days ago

Sansa is a meanie because she doesn't worship her like Dany demands everyone to do.

sg_1996
10
5 days ago

Respect is what I would say instead. She doesn't have to be her friend (lol, quoting Mad Queen now), but she could be nicer after risking her life and her dragons to save Jon and the North and the rest of the kingdoms anyways...

Meloetta
19
5 days ago

She could be nicer.

But if you can't handle people not being "nice enough", how good are you going to be as a ruler?

percygreen
12
5 days ago

Sansa Stark is fake news. There was no burning of King's Landing. Sansa is dumb. Everyone knows it. But she has to pick on me to make herself feel better. Sad. Covfefe

Fiftyfourd
6
5 days ago

Well that's kind of a staple for despots...

atheist_apostate
8
5 days ago

She could have just gone straight for the Red Keep, and just roasted the civilians hiding there as Cercei's human shields. Instead she roasted the whole city. That seemed a bit outside her character to me.

utopista114
5
5 days ago

500 thousand urban KL dwellers, the hipsters of Westeros. Ask around the world what people think about San Francisco and its high tech overlords.

EL-YEO
59
5 days ago

She’ll try, but Jon has seen the “mad queen” and might ally himself with Sansa and the rest of the north so Sansa might be well protected for a bit

flemhead3
35
5 days ago

“Hey Jon, BRB, gotta fly to Winterfell really quick and torch what’s left of the place.”

EL-YEO
5
5 days ago

Like I said, “for a bit”. Dany still needs to fly up to winterfell

murse_joe
9
5 days ago

Which takes about 35 minutes in the show.

a_fish_out_of_water
11
5 days ago

a bit

And this is what infuriates me most about this season, they’re trying to cram all this development and story into 6 episodes, 6 episodes that could easily be 8-10 episodes with more logical storylines

ILikeBigButtss
5
5 days ago

The North's army is borderline nonexistent at this point. They were less than 10,000 before the long night.

jordanlund
7
5 days ago

I don't think she'll get the time for it. She'll go after Tyrion for freeing Jamie ("The next time you fail me will be the last time you fail me.") and then Jon will take her out since Jon and Tyrion have been almost like brothers since he was a kid.

sg_1996
8
5 days ago

I don't think she'll get the chance, Arya will kill her before she even finds out that Jamie escaped with Tyrion's help...

backwardinduction1
13
5 days ago

Sansa was right to not trust a foreign conquerer. You have to remember from her perspective she wants northern independence since they had to fight so hard for it to take it back from the Bolton’s. Why would Sansa trust someone who basically told her she was only interested in the iron throne, and that helping Jon was only a way to secure that? Especially considering what Aerys Targaryen did Rickard Stark, it makes sense that Sansa would have reason to think that Danaerys would only be able to rule with blood and fear, and it turns out that Sansa was right in the end..

sharaq
8
5 days ago

Outcast nerd with weird pets starts dating other outcast, gets bullied by his popular older sister, becomes a school shooter?

MegaManagement
9
5 days ago

Sansa is his younger sister, I think.

StarvingWriter33
7
5 days ago

His younger cousin, yes. Jon Snow is roughly the same age as Robb. (Thanks, WingedGeek, for pointing out my error.)

WingedGeek
7
5 days ago

Is that established? I thought Robb and Jon were almost exactly the same age, and it was unclear who was older...

Business_Clerk
153
5 days ago

I really don't think she is "Mad" in the sense that her father was.

She was pissed. Everyone was expecting her to do this... so she just kind of said "Screw it"

Worst case.. she flies back across the Narrow Sea and rules there.

jkj_2000
243
5 days ago

Worst case.. she flies back across the Narrow Sea and rules there.

That's the best scenario for her now unfortunately. Plenty of worse scenarios waiting for her atm.

Business_Clerk
88
5 days ago

At this point, death is a mercy.

She has completed her purpose in life. Everyone she loves and 2 of her children are dead....

thebabybear
115
5 days ago

Technically 3 children

YouSighLikeJan
170
5 days ago

Thank you, everyone seems to forget she had an actual human pregnancy and lost that child as well.

matthoback
25
5 days ago

everyone seems to forget she had an actual human pregnancy and lost that child as well.

Tyrion is very much still alive and well.

1MillionMonkeys
5
5 days ago

For anyone not familiar: D+D=T

lazeyboy420
9
5 days ago

i always imagined that her son's soul (along with Khal Drogo's) went into her dragons while they hatched. "only death can pay for life" so hopefully their souls live on...but that would mean Miri Maz Dur's soul is in there too :(

thebabybear
5
5 days ago

You're very welcome (☞゚ヮ゚)☞

orionsfire
15
5 days ago

Found the 'Stannis'.

ThaChalupaBatman
104
5 days ago

I think they mean that while she is "mad" and gets extremely angry, her father was legitimately mentally ill. He would hear voices, didn't groom himself and let his nails grow out super long, was paranoid, and would go from laughing hysterically to be extremely serious in seconds. So while she has extreme anger issues like her dad, she's not quite a paranoid schizophrenic like her father was.

tylerjarvis
80
5 days ago

That’s all valid. I think the only thing I would add is:

Yet.

Morbidd
9
5 days ago

This could send her over

PorcelainAndBlue
31
5 days ago

We did see her drastically change her behavior within seconds in ep. 4. When she was talking to Jon about the secret she was crying and begging then switched it off like a light and was cold and angry.

pm_me_your_clit2014
14
5 days ago

Yeah that scene was so manipulative, straight up using crying to get what she wants like some little kids do and switched right up when it didn't work

PorcelainAndBlue
20
5 days ago

It's hard to tell whether she was being intentionally manipulative or if that scene was to illustrate her deteriorating mental state and strange behavior. I wish the director's had clarified that in their commentary.

Zombi_Sagan
17
5 days ago

I wish the showrunners would stop clarifying shit in the commentary.

caitalice88
6
5 days ago

How old is she supposed to be? Maybe early to mid-20’s? That’s prime time for psychosis to start to appear.

arctos889
7
5 days ago

And in the books she's 5 years younger than she is in the show. So we don't know for sure if she's truly mad because she's too young for symptoms to have really started showing up. It's also worth noting she does share a trait with her father: extremely ambitious, possibly even possible, plans. Before he went truly insane, Aerys had loads of unrealistic plans. One could argue Dany's goal of ending slavery in the known world is just as unrealistic. It's also worth noting that Aerys' madness only truly began to show itself beyond being unrealistically ambitious when he was 33 years old. Even them, the trigger was him being imprisoned for several months during the Defiance of Duskendale. So Dany eventually being mad like her father is still possible if she lives long enough. You could even argue the string of trauma she experiences in the show could help trigger it

BellEpoch
43
5 days ago

I don't know if Tywin is mad or not. But he's certainly not celebrated for being a great dude or anything. Even the people who respected and supported him did so mostly out of fear.

StarvingWriter33
47
5 days ago

Tywin was the definition of "ruling through fear." And look what it got him in the end. Killed on the potty by his own son.

BellEpoch
36
5 days ago

Definitely. Although if you think about it his goal was never his own personal power, but setting up the family to rule. Which he accomplished, swimmingly. He just kinda forgot the part where he raised his family to be any good at it. And they subsequently flushed it all away.

Yes pun intended.

ShadowOfHodor
46
5 days ago

Tywin had the reputation of being extremely cold-hearted absolutely. It's said that the only time anyone saw him smile was on his wedding day.

But he simply put the legacy of his house above the lives of individuals at any cost. I don't think he took pleasure in his cruel deeds, he was trying to establish the Lannisters as a dynasty that would last hundreds of years.

Maybe I'd call him an extremely motivated sociopath.

DrZerglingMD
6
5 days ago

People should read the ASOIAF Wiki and look into Tywin's youth. It describes him 100% as a cold heart, calculating SOB with no time for games. Even he was pretty mad at how the Elia and the children were killed and that's the incident that caused him to realize what Ser Gregor truly was, a mad brute.

sweetsummwechild
9
5 days ago

I don't know why people act as if the important thing about "the mad king" was that he was certifyable and not that he burned people alive and wanted to torch King's Landing. Like someone we know.

Kinmuan
122
5 days ago

I really don't think she is "Mad" in the sense that her father was.

For sure.

And she does have that mean streak in her, but it was tempered repeatedly by those around her.

Her advisors are dying off, some have turned against her (Varys), some are questioning her (Tyrion). I mean, her only other 1 on 1 was with Grey Worm. You know what he's gonna advocate?

Yeah, death.

tofur99
157
5 days ago

Missandei's final word probably didn't help either. If the super peaceful girl is saying your dragon fire word when you're already feeling the temptation...

DiscordAddict
50
5 days ago

That shit was sooo off character for Misandei. She wouldnt want children burt to death....

Guanthwei
69
5 days ago

She might not have meant burn the whole city, maybe just burn the Lannisters, or burn the bitch who gave the order to execute.

cipher_six
54
5 days ago

Yeah when Dany took off from the wall while the bells were tolling I thought she was heading straight for Cersei because that would be justified. I wanted to believe that she was still the person who wouldn't massacre innocents. Obviously she took the path most traveled.

Daragh48
5
5 days ago

Except she had massacred Innocents before, they just weren't painted in such a good light. Being some of the nobles in Mereen. She always promised she'd do shit like this if no one was there to reign her in or advise otherwise. This is exactly what she promised to do to Qarth multiple seasons ago. What she wanted to do to Yunkai, and even thought about doing to Mereen.

All of those tendencies were there from the beginning, she just normally had people that would tell her no, and keep her from making these decisions.

If Jorah was there she probably would have eventually broken him down like she would have done with Jon (till ya know, torching KL down in front of him), that or they would have eventually clashed and fought.

Jorah was fairly aware of her darker tendencies, he just kept hoping she would veer away from that, or he was blinded by his love for her.

Guanthwei
4
5 days ago

She stabbed us all in the front when she didn't just B-line to the Keep during the surrender. She had a temper tantrum that killed thousands. If anyone deserves to die in this show it's the one we were rooting for for all these years.

Elizapornberry
6
5 days ago

I agree somewhat. She looked really shaken and weak when she was chained up. Had they showed her being tortured or in the dungeons with the mountain (and the assumed dead sand snakes) perhaps that word would make more sense.

SomeRandomProducer
74
5 days ago

I think that’s also a big reason why she had that line about “the next time you fail me will be the last time you fail me” she gave him a ton of chances though.

LegendReborn
140
5 days ago

And that's part of why Dany has always been a flawed ruler. She demands her advisors always give her the right answer instead of weighing options and letting the buck stop with her own self. Someone can still be a good advisor while not giving a great solution to every problem they are faced with. Dany demands her advisors to take the blame when something doesn't work out but assumes herself to be the actual ruler when things work out.

Scarya
87
5 days ago

THANK you. She’s the fucking queen, if she doesn’t think Tyrion is giving good advice, she needs to think up a plan of her own (other than “Burn them all,” that is.)

LegendReborn
56
5 days ago

That's also a trend that started well before last season too. When Dany can't think of the obvious solution, she tells her advisors to come up with a plan. She chooses one and then bitches at the advisors when it isn't perfect. There's nothing wrong with having heated debates with your advisors but a leader needs to accept that they are ultimately still accountable.

I'm still on board with the complaints about inadequate showing the audience the importance of those she's lost along with making some of it better scripted but the overtures were at least there.

MarthaJamesLW
29
5 days ago

I really like that this line strongly echoed what she said to her brother, when he tried to take the eggs from her - "The next time you raise a hand to me will be the last time you have hands."

a_fish_out_of_water
15
5 days ago

I seriously hope he goes off on her a lá his trial for Joffrey’s murder. I’d love to see him tear into her and have her either feel remorseful for her actions or burn him and go full mad. Knowing D&D however he’ll most likely just stand around brooding and being useless until she burns him for letting Jaime go

byahseeker
8
5 days ago

Yea were going to see her burn him after an arrest and it will cement what everyone already thinks. Don't forget Sansa has a soft spot for tyrion and that will only confirm her thought process

BellEpoch
44
5 days ago

It's not like he didn't try to do good things. He told her specifically not to do this. He did everything he could to prevent this disaster. And he's an advisor for that reason. Also Jorah and people like him trust Tyrion for good reason. And repeatedly reminded her that is the reason to have him as Hand.

FrankieFillibuster
33
5 days ago

He actually has done everything with the intention of it causing less death and destruction. His hope in freeing Jamie was to have him take Cersei from the capital, leaving it open for Dany to take with much less bloodshed.

Going back to last season, he organized the meeting to try and get both sides to work together. Going back even further, he's always about the diplomatic or less violent solution and he's constantly getting grief from his queen for it.

poub06
55
5 days ago

Exactly. And people complaining that it was rushed, it's because it was rushed for Daenerys aswell and it's a big reason why this happened. In less than a month, she lost Jorah, Missandei, Rhaegal and her lover who is now the rightful heir to the throne she wanted. It was too much in such a short period of time for someone as emotionnal as her. She lost every aspect of her life related to love. The only thing left was one powerful dragon, an army and a couple of advisors who were afraid of what she could become. In other words, everything she had left was: fear. It was rushed, but it was rushed in the story as well and it's one of the reason why it happened.

Kinmuan
41
5 days ago

I think part of it is because we didn't see rage.

Jorah? A bittersweet ending, 'the way he would have wanted to go', etc. She was mournful, but understood the sacrifice, and I think understood the...this is how he would have wanted to die. So she was mournful, but I think a bit accepting.

Rhaegal? Obviously depressed and despondent.

Jon? She's obviously hurt.

But I feel like we don't see her get mad at any of those. She starts to get mad with the death of Missandei.

Maybe a flash of anger at Jorah's death? Maybe a bit of lashing out at Jon?

I can fully appreciate the impact of all those things weighing on her, but I think it's more jarring to people when the turn seems 'sudden', because we haven't seen her get fucking pissed in a minute.

poub06
35
5 days ago

I think she was clearly pissed when Rhaegal and Missandei died. We saw her screaming while charging Euron and then her face when Missandei got executed said it all, IMO.

Kinmuan
9
5 days ago

Mmm, that's true about Rhae, in the moment. But the after-time was more her being depressed. That was more the focus. "oooo, look at Dany she looks all sorts of fucked up like she just got dumped or something and stopped taking care of her self".

I'm not saying I don't see it or get it, but I think it might have been a bit too 'subtle' for a large amount of people.

bk1285
8
5 days ago

Well it’s a step in the right direction compared to her ancestors and the Lannister’s

guillermotor
31
5 days ago

Yeah, but that's war, isn't? People die all around you. They were already prepared to die at the long night, and of course there's an emotional factor there, but what would you think if a president wants to launch a nuke just because he/she had a really bad day? (Maybe it happened and someone has stopped it)

Dany was damaged, wanted blood and was sitting on the mass destruction weapon, but the thing about kings and queens is that they can be selfish, childish, dumb or crazy and have people paying the cost for it

Kinmuan
25
5 days ago

Yeah, but that's war, isn't? People die all around you. They were already prepared to die

This one hits a little close, but I'll say;

There's a huge difference between preparing for war and 'people dying' as an abstract idea, and then being there and literally watching people die. Much less a close friend.

edroyque
31
5 days ago

If she has Jorah, missandei and even Jon to some extent, she doesn’t need them. But not having them makes her need them even more. The Westeros version of catch 22.

Suedeegz
5
5 days ago

Exactly

NuclearOops
56
5 days ago

Exactly what I'm thinking, Jonah's death is part of the weird math equation D&D are using to add up to Dany's losing her shit. But more than that you're very right, Jorah would rather die then let her do this, but more likely he would have done something that Grey Worm absolutely is incapable of doing; comfort the poor girl while her world was falling around her.

richardgleeko
47
5 days ago

Greyworm lost his girl too. It was definitely revenge-based for both. He gave zero fucks when he speared that dude post s’more-fest

NuclearOops
10
5 days ago

I get where Grey Worm is at, I'm not holding it against him. Sticking it to those dudes after Dany let loose was every bit as much him letting off some steam as it was him following his queen.

THE_Batman_121
8
5 days ago

Yeah just murder people who are unarmed and surrendered because you wanna throw a hissy fit. Makes sense lol.

NuclearOops
7
5 days ago

Oh yeah totally, use the plot twist that I'm specifically speaking against to debunk my point.

OWNED BY FACTS AND LOGIC

Edit: the above was way saltier than it needed to be. But my point is exactly this, every decision she made up to that point was reasonable and understandable, Dany had been very rational up to this season when all of a sudden it seems she's gotten paranoid and neurotic.

/u/halcyomjm put it best I think, D&D have an ending in mind and age doing whatever they need to do to reach that ending without giving it the property space to get there in a logical manner. So we get wild left turns like Dany losing her shit after winning, or Air Arya coming out of thin air to kill the Night King. They should've taken the extra cash and took 10 episodes.

YeOldeVertiformCity
19
5 days ago

Yes. Dany wouldn’t have gone crazy if Jorah was still alive.

I bet if Jon shunned her after he found out about his true identity, Dany would have rebounded with Jorah.

NuclearOops
16
5 days ago

He was always so damn close wasn't he?

YeOldeVertiformCity
8
5 days ago

Well... the problem is that Dany going “crazy” last episode completely recontextualizes their entire relationship.

I think a lot of the reason that people saw Dany as pure-hearted and good is because people like Jorah said she was.

Now that we know that isn’t true, it means that Jorah was blinded by Dany’s beauty and power. That he was infatuated with a woman much too young for him... and he lied to himself and her about her being “good”.

But the thing that’s unfair to the actors is that they weren’t told this part of the story so Emilia Clarke never had the chance to build this into her performance.

NuclearOops
7
5 days ago

I'm sorry but she doesn't come off as evil. It was her own compassion that brought her to freeing the slaves in slavers bay. A lot of her "fire and blood" moments can count as signs in retrospect but they can also be explained away as a young girl in way over her head taking on a leadership role. If this were an actual historical figure it would be enough to count them retroactively but this is fiction and neednI remind you of Mark Twain's famous quote: "fiction is harder to write than non-fiction because fiction has to make sense."

I'm not dismissing the idea outright mind you, that may very well be what the showrunners intent behind those moments were. But they were far far too subtle considering that every other one of her actions can be explained away quite rationally. If anything accepting this depiction in reteospect actually throws the whole subject of Targaryen madness into question. Are we really getting the whole picture with the "Mad" King Aerys? Since Dany's madness up to this point has been so rational perhaps Aerys was just pushed too far as well. Maybe Maegor the Cruel was right to slaughter the Faith Militant and High Septon. Maybe Aenys Brightflame had good reason to believe wildfire would turn him into a dragon. Or maybe the showrunners rushed production and the writers had to cobble the rationale together as fast as possible.

ILikeNeurons
33
5 days ago

I don't think it would've happened if he were alive because losing him was a huge part of what set her on this path of isolation that led to her snapping.

awannabeintellectual
468
5 days ago

This wouldnt happen with Jorah, everyone talks bout Messandai, but Jorah was the advisor who had been by her side the longest, he had stopped her worst impluses for years.

orionsfire
235
5 days ago

Jorah would have tried to stop her from rushing to Dragonstone. Likely failed. He would have consoled her during the loss of her 2nd dragon, advised against killing Varys, and advised a direct assault on the Redkeep... at night, just as they did in Yunkai.

Jorah was many things, but an advocate of killing innocent women and children? Never. Had she done this with him alive, He would likely left and never returned, she was his light, and with her gone, his life would not be worth living. I saw this ending as soon as he died protecting her, she would never recover.

Failed-Forward-Roll
81
5 days ago

If Varys was actually trying to poison her at the beginning of the episode, he deserved to be killed and Jorah would have supported that.

Is_Not_A_Real_Doctor
60
5 days ago

If Varys has poisoned her, she wouldn’t have murdered half a million civilians.

littleski5
18
5 days ago

From a regent's perspective, that deserves death. From a humanitarian's perspective, I wish it had worked.

ForHarambeAndValor
11
5 days ago

Then again, maybe Varys plotting against her and trying to poison her is what sent her over the edge and put the idea of "ruling through fear" in her mind?

tigerXlily
20
5 days ago

Then why was he concerned with her not eating, and saying they'll "try again later"?

SamwellGnarly
9
5 days ago

I’d never thought of it this way but that line definitely seems to point to something nefarious - I had just assumed he was looking for any data he could on her mental state/wellbeing

Edit: Alternatively, he could have been referring to delivering the message, worried the Unsullied would catch her passing it off

TokiMcNoodle
5
5 days ago

Shit, the little girl even said she thought she was being watched by the unsullied. I don't usually follow the conspiracies but this seems truly legit.

Muugle
84
5 days ago

Book Jorah is a little icky

Telamo
75
5 days ago

Show Jorah is icky too, it's just that you literally can't not be somewhat attracted to Iain Glen.

CorbinStarlight
74
5 days ago

"I read the books, I'm telling you, I'm not excited to meet Jorah, he's the weirdest and creepiest guy."

-after the first episode-

"Okay so I have a lot of conflicting feelings right now."

  • My friend
JorahMormont42
12
5 days ago

I have the opposite problem. Jorah is (obviously) my favorite character in the show due to his nobility, his steadfastness, and his bravery.

Not so fun when I found out he's a creepo in the books. Thank god I'll always have Iain Glen's version.

JackedUpReadyToGo
12
5 days ago

Shit, I'm a straight guy and when Jorah is onscreen part of my brain is still like "Damn that's a handsome man."

PrincessLink
6
5 days ago

What do you mean somewhat? Iain Glen Jorah is hot as fuck

april9th
56
5 days ago

'Khaleesi you shouldn't return to Westeros, you, 15, should stay here with me, forever.'

Kammerice
9
5 days ago

Just a little?

YeOldeVertiformCity
13
5 days ago

It’s nice to hear people talk about the characters as real people rather than as characters on the show...

We used to say, “I wonder what Jorah wants to do,” but now people say, “I wonder what the show will do with Jorah.”

istandwhenipeee
68
5 days ago

It’s not like Missandei was exactly a big time peaceful advisor for Dany, her last word was more or less say burn this bitch to the ground.

TeRauparaha
23
5 days ago

I would say that too if I had survived the end of the world only to be executed by Cersei and her minions.

I_Am_A_Mudcrab
15
5 days ago

Remember, this woman and her people worship peace like a god. So strong is their desire not to hurt that they willingly let themselves be taken as slaves. Her final words were "kill them as brutally as you can"

Fanatical_Idiot
102
5 days ago

This is the big thing. Dany lost a lot in a very short amount of time. People call it rushed, but in reality it was the weight of those impacts that accelerated that.

Jorah died, then Jon revealed he was the true heir to the throne, and couldn't promise it to by a secret, then she lost rhaegal, lost messendai. Vary betrayed her because Jon wouldn't do the very thing she begged him not to. Tyrions constantly mishandling of his family's motives put his loyalty in question, and the only advisor she has loyal left is broken from loss the same as her.

She's a broken woman, paranoid for good reason in a land foreign to her. Her armies devastated by a war Bathgate bought her no love, bought her no loyalty. Her experiences garnering love fell flat, and inspiring loyalty through action feel flat, her attempt to inspire fear through power alone got her second dragon killed and when she last showed mercy to cersie, when she last trusted her word, she was betrayed the moment she turned her back, and now she only has one dragon and a handful of soldiers she can trust.

She chose to inspire fear through cruelty. It's all she has left, the only thing she has left to try to secure her position.

Cersie has a wall of innocents protecting her? Kill the innocents. Show them that you will show no mercy, that if a city resists it won't be battled to a victory, it won't be stormed and taken properly at the loss of her few soldiers. It will be burned.

Or at least, that's how I interpreted her decline. I've been told there's no reason to be had though so I'm probably wrong.

ThotdogOMEGA
42
5 days ago

Agree 100%. A few years ago I lost my mother and my aunt to cancer in the span of about 3 weeks. It was devastating. I immediately murdered four small children. Obviously what Dany did is a LOT worse but our behaviors were identical from a logic, foresight, and morality standpoint so I totally get how she feels. My probation officer says my decision to commit random homicide actually made a lot of sense to him once he found out about the cancer. He also really loves Season 8.

vinit144
14
5 days ago

They had us in the first half..

Fanatical_Idiot
11
5 days ago

You joke, but just look at mass shootings in the world now, and thats just with access to a gun in a world where a signficant number of other people also have guns of their own. Dany has a Dragon in a world where Dragons can conquer nations.

Dany was born on a boat escaping her own death sentence, sold by her own brother to a warlord.. She's been raped, abused, broken and then given immense power, and now she finds herself alone and a afraid.

She's been in an incredibly vulnerable state of mind her entire life. "the straw that broke the camels back" is too gentle of a euphemism.

SLICKWILLIEG
6
5 days ago

Yeah, and Dany is the equivalent of a 17 year old girl with access to nukes. Kinda easy for her to go overboard quickly

mango_guy
5
5 days ago

They overwhelmingly surrendered. There was no more fight to be had. She won. The people were all begging for surrender, showing that they are willing to submit to Dany. Plus the soldiers all threw down their weapons and she saw that too. Not only that but it makes no sense for her to senselessly mass murder innocents for like 20 minutes straight without pause or second thoughts before she finally turns her sights towards Cersei in the red keep.

bloodorgyyayyyy
5
5 days ago

I thought that was the most harrowing part of the whole episode; when it's dead silent and you can just hear random civilians yelling "RING THE BELLS!!"

Ron-Swanson-Mustache
125
5 days ago

I think his death was supposed to be part of the reason she snapped.

I really, REALLY, think this season could have been 100x better with 1 or two more episodes delving into the path to and reasons for Dany's break before she went full pryo.

-flights-
58
5 days ago

It pissed me off that they were offered ten episodes and still decided to use only six

Geodevils42
7
5 days ago

Maybe 10 episodes worth of budget but probably needed like 15 or more to do what was needed. Also in hind sight would you really want 4 more episodes of sub par writing? Or 7 I guess if we count last season too since it was short and had pacing issues as well.

Twisted51
7
5 days ago

They were offered 10 seasons of 10 episodes iirc.

UWillFearMyLaserFace
14
5 days ago

agreed. Unfortunately DnD are chomping at the bit for someone to strap on their brand new Disney feedbag and their southern poor-man's version of the man in the high tower to start so they rejected HBO's offer for more than 6 eps

Zastrozzi
6
5 days ago

Have they written anything original? Are they getting all these commissions because they just translated someones work into a tv show? Because if that's the case then why would people assume they could come up with anything new for Star Wars? I don't get it.

UWillFearMyLaserFace
6
5 days ago

David Benioff did the screenplay for X-Men Origins: Wolverine which....says everything...

UltraMoglog64
6
5 days ago

He also wrote 25th Hour and co-wrote Brothers. The writers are capable, they just don’t care anymore.

B2A3R9C9A
79
5 days ago

It's for the best. He'd lose his shit if he realized he's been crushing on a batshit insane dragon queen for his whole life

Dutchillz
71
5 days ago

Jorah wasn't even exiled until 5 years prior to the stories begin. That means that "his whole life" was actually a few years my dude...I mean, the guy was obviously already middle-aged when he got to know her.

Edit: I'll add that, in the books, Jorah is a 45(ish)yo man.

DrYoda
9
5 days ago

Uhh and the fact that she's a teenager when they meet and that moment happens on the show?

Yemoya
28
5 days ago

He didn't crush on her his whole life though, remember that one time he decided to plot against her to poison her?

sweetsummwechild
14
5 days ago

That didn't happen at all. He was a spy before meeting her, never "decided" or tried to kill her.

axle69
6
5 days ago

To be fair at least show wise they made it clear he was just keeping track of her and didnt learn of the poison plot until after the pardon was sent which he stopped.

piind
55
5 days ago

Maybe she became what she is because Jorah died

tiger308
5
5 days ago

definitely. because of his death, Rhaegals and Missandeis. all of her true advisers are gone. except grey worm but he wanted revenge as much as Dany

HatedSovietLion
42
5 days ago

I also don't think she would have become this too if he was still alive. He has been with her the longest. Honestly, he has the longest in-show relationship out of all of the characters I think. Since episode 1 they have been with each other in most seasons.

He was her strongest moral compass and wasn't afraid to tell her that he thought she was doing things wrong even while loving her, and she didn't immediately attack him when things went wrong as she does with Tyrion.

His death was one of the major things that I think pushed her over the edge (I still think the show rushed her "madness" turn in this last season, show has tried to subtly foreshadow it but the hints were far too subtle and infrequent in show as opposed to book).

Ragman676
40
5 days ago

I hate that about Dany right now tbh. She shit all over his memory and the lessons he taught her.

rage675
14
5 days ago

I think it would have made for an intriguing storyline if he survived and saw this happen. Does it change his feelings for her, or does he stay in her corner?

theghostwithoutaname
11
5 days ago

With him dead; Dany really has noone to count on for guidance. Shame.

garimajain2002
8
5 days ago

She probably would not have become this “mad” had Jorah not died. Part of the reason for her anger was that she came all the way north for Jon’s/humanity’s cause, lost her dearest friends and advisors, half her army, and her dragons, and yet got no love in return from the northerners/westerosees!

Jon didn’t just ‘seemingly’ betray her, he really did. By constantly telling the northerners that he bent the knee to her not because he thought she will be a better queen, but because of the power that she had. And that she wouldn’t help if they didn’t bend down. He created that image for her all through. Apart from the fact that he went ahead and told Arya and Sansa the truth about his lineage, knowing well that this would make them against her further from what they already were, which also didn’t make sense. No one knew until then, and there was no real reason (apart from maybe his own stomach was hurting keeping the truth to himself)!

Tyrion and Varys also exchanged looks each time she decided to not take their (previously proven foolish) advice, and started seeing a tyrant in her without her actually having done anything to get that image. Varys was willing to give the throne to Jon, who he didn’t know at all himself! He may have had what one minute of screen time with him until when he approached him to take the throne!

Sansa is also being suddenly made to look like a queen. All the things that Danny always stood for, taking care of the people and the vulnerable and her army, was suddenly moved on to Sansa. So if she doesn’t trust Danny, then yes, Danny must be bad.

Danny’s arc is completely cheated, and unbelievable! So yes, getting her to come down on the sea of dead sitting on Drogo, not burning the dead, leading to Jorah coming to save her, and then dying in her arms, was part of that cheating!

UWillFearMyLaserFace
10
5 days ago

Jon didn’t just ‘seemingly’ betray her, he really did. By constantly telling the northerners that he bent the knee to her not because he thought she will be a better queen, but because of the power that she had.

He has said many times she will be a good queen AND they need her. Both what he felt to be true.

And that she wouldn’t help if they didn’t bend down. He created that image for her all through.

...because that is literally what happened. Dany eventually agreed to help but she agreed to help only if he bent the knee. His "betrayal" was being honest on the terms and conditions of her help.

Apart from the fact that he went ahead and told Arya and Sansa the truth about his lineage, knowing well that this would make them against her further from what they already were, which also didn’t make sense. No one knew until then, and there was no real reason (apart from maybe his own stomach was hurting keeping the truth to himself)!

Jon didn't know that. He honestly believes his refusal of the throne and support of her is all that matters. Even if he was wrong that IS what the character believes. Jon has spent his entire existence being an outsider in his own home and family. So he finally has a chance to not be an unwanted mistake and Dany told him "STFU because it hurts MY dream." She doesn't trust him to ignore the call to the throne cause if it were reversed she wouldn't.

Dany created this arc for herself. It may be clumsily handed in show but she is what she is due to her own choices.

heebath
6
5 days ago

Read her POV chapters again. The show rushed it, for sure, but they too foreshadow her inevitable psychosis. Dany going mad queen was always the bittersweet ending GRRM promised us.

-TP_
6
5 days ago

But He could probably be the only one able to stop Daenerys

Maelesa
4
5 days ago

I named my dog J-Bear after Jorah of Bear Island. I thought it was a good name for a loyal good boi. Still feel bad for the parents who named their kids Khaleesi

muh_christian_values
1912
5 days ago

Yeah, I don’t think she would’ve went quite as batshit if he were still alive. She was her oldest friend.

Sm4shaz
887
5 days ago

Ironically that last sentence is still true even with the typo.

roflmaohaxorz
207
5 days ago

I thought Ser Barristan Selmy was older than Jorah

chefr89
280
5 days ago

Selmy wasn't a friend, he was an official "cake" carver.

termitered
109
5 days ago

official "cake" carver.

Damn he was so badass

MillWize
153
5 days ago

“A painter who only used red”

dsjunior1388
48
5 days ago

One of my favorite lines in the show

stretchcharge
90
5 days ago

Gods the writing was strong then

Adityavirk
9
5 days ago

Bobby b!

americaeh
29
5 days ago

Technically in the show they would have both been her oldest friends when they both died. Since Baristan was first and older.

Edit: I would like to emphasize Baristan was her oldest (age) friend when he died. Jorah would be her oldest friend in both length of friendship and age unless you count her friendship with Illirio

JollyLlama19
23
5 days ago

Didn’t Jorah meet Daenerys first? I vaguely recall Barristan and Jorah talking westeros-stuff when they met in Dany’s company

icecoldtoaster
29
5 days ago

Jorah was definitely first. He is there at the wedding of Khal Drogi and Dany and serves her and viserys from that point on. Barristen doesn't appear until mid book 2 and/or when the man tries to assassinate Dany with the venomous Manticore in the box.

-__Sage__-
9
5 days ago

I know "Drogi" is a typo but it has me hysterical rn.

arieswanxiety
18
5 days ago

I feel like this was meant to be a joke about age and it’s going over everyone’s heads

roflmaohaxorz
6
5 days ago

You are exactly correct

defensepuppy
4
5 days ago

He was her boldest friend

Lucifronz
8
5 days ago

I doubt the writers would have cared, honestly, but logically-speaking his death was part of what put her over the brink and had it been avoided, should have been enough to keep her rational.

Rational for Daenerys, at least. She was always kind of angry and "I'm the queen, why shouldn't I just kill you". I think people forget that when criticizing D&D. They've done a lot wrong this season, but Daenerys, compassionate as she was, could be very vengeful and anyone that disrespected her, she enjoyed reminding them that she had big dragons with big appetites.

She was kind of a dick.

elconquistador1985
388
5 days ago

There have been signs of her rage for years, but she's always been tamed by Jorah, Missandei, Tyrion, and others around her. Now they're all either dead or she considers them traitors, and there's no taming her anymore. Jorah was the last person who might have been able to stop this.

hotcapicola
426
5 days ago

Jon could have stopped it with that thing he does with his tongue.

Doomnezeu
209
5 days ago

Bastard couldn't take one for the team.

PM_ME_A_STEAM_GIFT
113
5 days ago

Bastard

Doomnezeu
89
5 days ago

Excuse me. Ahem: Aegon Targaryen, Sixth of His Name, Protector of the Realm, all of it.

SlightCarpet
20
5 days ago

King i'the bloodeh Norf!!!!!

Doomnezeu
7
5 days ago

King of the Bloody Seven Kingdoms!!!

Lucifronz
5
5 days ago

Missandei: "You stand in the presence of Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, rightful heir to the Iron Throne, rightful queen of the Andals and the First Men, protector of the Seven Kingdoms, the Mother of Dragons, the Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, the Unburnt, the Breaker of Chains."

Davos: "This is Jon Snow."

...........

Davos: "He's King in the North."

(Site note: Found an article that called this scene sexist while getting the exact text... she actually argues that because Daenerys uses more titles and Jon refreshingly does not, it's somehow a parallel to women in the workplace. WTF is wrong with feminists? Can't it just be that titles matter to a person like Daenerys, who wants to be queen, whereas Jon, a simple bastard in his own mind, does not? Contrast of personalities, lady. It's not always social commentary.)

/u/fbolt

Doomnezeu
7
5 days ago

I remember that scene, I laughed my ass off, had to pause the damn show and rewatch it again and again. I don't even know what you mean with that last part, a parallel to women in the workplace. What does that have to do with women in the workplace? I just thought of it like they are simple men, Davos just learned to read a few seasons ago for God's sake, it was just funny to me, like "Oh yeah, almost forgot, he's King in the North"

Some people are too eager to get offended at everything and anything, like it's a contest or something.

Sharobob
86
5 days ago

Jon watching the entirety of King's Landing burn to the ground

Hmm maybe I should have gone for one last shag

a_dry_banana
8
5 days ago

Would of been a win win

kl isn't burned

he rides a dragon

phxjdp
24
5 days ago

Do it for Auntie.

Doomnezeu
17
5 days ago

Well that sounds wrong now that you've said it out loud.

Irzon
5
5 days ago

Doesn’t even have to be in King’s Landing before that good ol’ fashion Stark family honor starts getting people killed. At least with Ned, he had to stay there for a good couple of month before the bloodbath began. Jon’s was next day.

amesfatal
36
5 days ago

Too bad she didn’t like Podrick.

Hurrahcane
6
5 days ago

My man Pod the Rod

chellis
35
5 days ago

The King in the south.

uncledaddy09
5
5 days ago

Jon could have lied to Cersei as well in the dragon pit but those old headless Ned lessons didn’t allow him too. I hoped he had learned from that but northerns are stubborn af.

CreamyGoodnss
5
5 days ago

"Jon you need to fuck your Aunt so thousands of innocent people don't die"

"Yeah but ew gross"

mokas95
90
5 days ago

Her rage was always against guilty people. Not innocents. She cried and put her dragons on chains when drogon killed a child. She wasn't tamed, she just never wanted to hurt innocent civilians.

elconquistador1985
138
5 days ago

She told Tyrion in season 6 that she wanted to burn slaver cities to the ground, and that necessarily involves killing Innocents. She even tried to claim it's different from the Mad King, and evidently you bought her explanation. Tyrion was correct in that scene, and he's the one who was saying it's the same.

She has talked about burning down cities and was pulled away from that position by a trusted advisor. Now she has burned down a city, and you still somehow believe those are different. They're not. She's literally had this impulse before, an advisor talked her down from it, now she doesn't trust anyone and there's no one to talk her down this time.

It's like we haven't even watched the same show. She has never been benevolent. Her kindness to "innocents" only happened because it furthered her goals, not because she was genuinely kind.

AsWillx
54
5 days ago

I agree she has definitely had those impulses before. BUT I strongly disagree that she helped innocent in order to further her agenda. She was able to go to Westeros by the end of S4 but stayed nonetheless because she said (poorly quoted) "[She doesn’t] want to see the slaves [she’s] freed slide back into chains."

fryreportingforduty
44
5 days ago

Agreed. Which is why it makes Dany’s arc so tragic. She’s fighting a rage that’s genetic and a desire to be better. She’s had a support system around her thus far to help her win these inner battles, but no more — and she lost this battle within herself.

Edit: Same with how Jaime lost his own inner battle to redeem his actions or relapse one final time into his addiction (Cersei). Both characters we love who ultimately lost to their own inner turmoil.

euphwes
34
5 days ago

Considering Jaime's actions as those of a relapsed addict actually help me mentally deal with my disappointment in him. Thanks for that.

a_dry_banana
7
5 days ago

Aswell you can take it as someone full of guilt, he still thinks of himself as a monster for what he has done and he doesn't deserve to live a happy life, so he went to kl to die with the woman he was "addicted" to

MaximumRecursion
12
5 days ago

I think she got to a point where she decided to stop trying to be a benevolent leader, and unleash her inner "dragon" and rule through fear.

She lost nearly everything by being benevolent, while seeing every other leader besides Jon act like shit with no repercussions. Now Jon has a better claim to the throne, and is actually loved by the Westeros people, and she is disliked. Despite sacrificing nearly everything to save them from the WhiteWalkers.

She had a choice to be benevolent and accept the Lannisters surrender, but she said fuck that. And honestly the Lannisters deserved to die. They killed a ton of innocents, and Danys advisors and dragon, and instead of helping to defeat the white walkers used that time to build tools to kill her dragons.

However, once she flipped that switch it was over. Her rage overflowed from the Lannisters and she just unleashed all her rage on Kings Landing. She made a conscious decision to not accept the surrender for some legit reasons, and once the slaughter began she couldn't stop.

The writing of this could have been better, but we still have an entire episode to see her logic behind it and how she reacts. But it definitely isn't horrible writing by any means. A lot of valid reasons are there for her doing what she did. We just don't know them yet.

carlaraptor
6
5 days ago

I think this comment says it the best. Whilst I obviously don't agree with her actions or think they were justified, I do understand why she did what she did.

relevantwittyusernam
6
5 days ago

Preach it. Agree 100000% with you.

Eagleassassin3
5
5 days ago

Nope. There are many slave cities that she did not have to save but she did. Jorah told her about not necessarily taking a certain city, then Dany said they had 200,000 reasons to take that city because it had 200,000 slaves. She didn't have to save them but she did. So don't say she was never benevolent. She could definitely be cruel, entitled and harsh but she wasn't not benevolent. She freed thousands of slaves and told them they were all free to go but they could join her if they wanted to.

wobernein
7
5 days ago

200,000 more people that would love her. Its not benevolent if youre doing it for yourself.

TeddysBigStick
8
5 days ago

We have explicitly been told that at least one of the people she tortured to death via crucifiction was innocent of the crime she was killing him for. She also had that random master eaten by the dragons without knowing whether he was loyal or not. Dany has always been about collective punishment of groups, regardless of the guilt or innocense of the individual doing the suffering and dying. We earlier did have a scene where Dany declared that everyone in the city was guilty by assosciation with Cersei because they did not rise up against their rulers and, this is the part left unsaid, worship her like a god as she has come to expect because of Essos.

AwHellNawFetaCheese
26
5 days ago

Yeah she’s been brutal many times.

She crucified 160 people and she burned the Dothraki leaders alive. Those are two events that she wasn’t on the clear “good” side of the “good vs evil” fight.

Both times she either operated independently from her advisors counsel or directly contradicted it.

I would say her biggest flaw as a conqueror would be a lack of attention to detail.

cherrybomb921
24
5 days ago

I mean, was burning the Dothraki leaders really seen as cruel? They were going to force her to live there indefinitely and/or possibly kill her because she didn't report as ordered. To me, she was just getting rid of the obstacle to her freedom. Plus, you become the new leader if you kill the old leader. So, in reality she really united the Dothraki clans under one ruler.

Kind of seems more like she did the right thing, in that instance.

UristMcRibbon
8
5 days ago

That's pretty much always been the case in Essos. Her more questionable actions were against brutal people we wanted to see die or suffer.

The big takeaway is she learned how to rule and gain power in a ruthless, mostly (what we would consider) lawless land. She's taken those lessons to Westeros and no one is in a position to check her.

Jorah, Melisandre and Jon were likely the last ones who could argue against her impulses and make her see reason. With the former two gone and Jon doing his best Ned impression (I loved Ned but wasn't suited to the Game), she was left without anyone to fully trust or assure that her drastic actions weren't needed.

With Cersi and the people in King's Landing defying her will and destiny, her claim being threatened and then the killing of her child and her more or less symbol of innocence and good nature, and with no trusted advisors to console her afterwards, Westeros was pretty screwed as soon as Melisandre said her final words.

Slim_Charleston
5
5 days ago

The people she crucified were slavers and the Dothraki she burned alive had just finished threatening her with rape and death. She was brutal to her enemies, but basically a good person. Now she's totally unhinged.

NateDrake96
5
5 days ago

Among the crucified slavers there were at least one master who was fighting for the slaves’ rights. I believe there were more than one decent person and it was cruel to kill all of them without trial.

MagisterHaseo
101
5 days ago

Everyone is upset how rushed and unfulfilling the development was. Like we went 55-100 waaaaaaay to quickly

Tendem
10
5 days ago

I think she started becoming tyrannical a long time ago. There were even signs of it back in slaver’s bay iirc

MagisterHaseo
13
5 days ago

There’s were SIGNS of her becoming more ruthless over the years, but even her worst actions did not dictate burning innocent lives, least of all women and children. She always had the thoughts of the people behind a lot of her actions I.e. preventing the Dothraki to rape, ending the slavery in Meereen, etc.

eden_sc2
6
5 days ago

There were but there is a lot of distance between overly cruel to my enemies and burning the people I intend to rule

The_bruce42
7
5 days ago

It reminds me of Revenge of the Sith and how anakin turned in Palpatine but 15 minutes later he joins him.

jwhollan
35
5 days ago

She didn't have dragons or anything else to kill them all with though. Not saying she would have anyway, but she didn't have the power to back then. She wasn't yet a queen back then either so she didn't lose her claim and her kingdom on top of everything else which is what pushed her over the edge last episode. AND let's not ignore the fact that even if all her losses back then were just as crushing as present day and she had the power to kill everyone, she still had Jorah who could talk her off the ledge.

And even if you still want to ignore all of that and are convinced the situations in season one were basically identical to this season's, then I'll also point out that she did in fact burn a woman alive out of spite in what should be seen as at the very least the first small "mad queen" hint of the show. Even Jorah gave her that "are you sure about this?" look before Dany told him "you swore to obey me".

What you and others don't understand is that everyone sees the "reasons" that you see, they just don't agree that they're sufficient explanation for insanity.

Based on the above, I'm not really sure you actually do see the reasons? I dunno, maybe I'm the one missing something. I certainly welcome the discussion if I am.

slkwont
12
5 days ago

She wasn't insane mad. She crossed over into IDGAF territory. She was a conqueror in a foreign land. The people had no love for her - only fear. She had no love for them, no obligation to them. She even outright said she chose to rule by fear. I think there was genuine conflict within her when the bells were ringing "Should I or shouldn't I go apeshit?" But she had been betrayed by Cersei, by Tyrion, by Jon. She couldn't trust anyone and took what she felt she was entitled to with fire and blood, just as she had been saying she would do for years.

hotcapicola
10
5 days ago

I feel like it was in her power she would have started killing random Dothraki or at the very least random lamb men.

TeddysBigStick
8
5 days ago

She didn't instantly lose her mind

She had a mental break down and tortured someone to death and walked into a fire as part of an accidental death magic ritual.

bulletjournalocd
4
5 days ago

Yeah and i know this sounds arsey but as a mental health professional her descent into madness doesn't really make sense regarding how spontaneous violence happens in real life.

slkwont
9
5 days ago

I said this above in a comment, but she didn't descend into madness. She knew what she was doing. She made a choice. She was in no way insane and this was not spontaneous.

naesos
8
5 days ago

I think he might have finally gotten some now that Jon and Dany know they’re related. Died too soon

Jmac24mats13
5
5 days ago

Exactly this! Him and Missadei were the only 2 making sure she was good. Tyrion kinda was until his plans kept failing and having a Lannister name doesn’t help either

idma
4
5 days ago

"sorry, we didn't have budget to edit a scene of her remembering Jorah and her connection to her sanity with him"

nate3113
1773
5 days ago

I am glad that he wasn’t here to witness her turn, but I also don’t think it would’ve happened if she hadn’t lost Jorah or Missandei. Perhaps just one of them being there with her would be enough to reason with her and keep her level head. She’s lost a lot in a short amount of time. I, unlike a lot of people don’t really have an issue with her turn. It was sad to see and disappointing but mostly just because it’s sad to see what she turned into after rooting for her for so long.

MysteriousLi
624
5 days ago

She’s lost a lot in a short amount of time.

I think some people are overlooking this.

  1. Viseryon - one of her "sons"
  2. Jorah - best friend who was there since the beginning
  3. Rhaegal - another of her "sons"
  4. Missandei - best friend who was there since the beginning

Add in Dothraki loyal warriors such as Qhono, Varus with his betrayal and Jon Snow with his refusal to love her. And then there's her claim to the throne. Cersei herself seemed to become much more irrational with each loss she suffered, Joffrey/Tommen/Myrcella/Tywin.

adamcim
262
5 days ago

Varus is a LoL champion, the dude you're looking for is Varys

14ace
64
5 days ago

Maybe Rito’s changed his lore again ¯_(ツ)_/¯

I_Am_A_Mudcrab
11
5 days ago

Two penises to one penis to none. Math checks out

LovesToSpooge2001
74
5 days ago

Well Tyrion did say they could rule together

Doomnezeu
78
5 days ago

I know, but it seems like this thought never crossed Dany or Jon's mind even for a second. I was hoping at least Dany would mention this option since she didn't seem bothered that they were related. She even said to Daario before she left Mereen that the best way to make alliances is through marriage. What better husband than Jon, that turns out to also be a Targaryen? I'm sure he would still have the support of the North, you can't erase all the good that he has done, or has tried to do for the realm and his people, just because he is no longer Jon Snow.

Swineflew1
75
5 days ago

She doesn’t want to share. She would be technically under his rule and even though they’re a “team” he outranks her and it’s not really a rank that he can pretend doesn’t exist.

Working_Trash
38
5 days ago

It's a pretty good thing they made one of Jons 3 lines this season "I don't want it" lol he would have been the perfect husband for dany cuz he wouldn't get in her way

But honestly it was weird that marriage wasn't brought up last season when it would have made a lot of since. Dany was looking for allies and she has already married for political reasons. Marriage is one of the oldest political moves in history and has been used many times in the show already

i_miss_arrow
7
5 days ago

Eh, its pretty obvious the only reason they're ignoring it is because D&D bungled the evolution of several main characters, and so they're ignoring it because the 'Dany goes mad' storyline doesn't work if Jon sticks with her. Like it wouldn't surprise me if in the books Dany is less 'mad queen' and more 'cruel tyrant' and Jon is forced to turn against Dany despite being happy to marry her.

Hugh_Jampton
10
5 days ago

Am I imagining things or did Dany expressly deny this saying they would respect him and not her. She had to rule and the bloodline be kept secret...?

She would never be satified being the Woman of the King. She actually spelled this out.

It's not like she's been all cryptic about this the whole show or anything. Each and every time someone questions her motives she says she's going to move heaven and Westeros to sit on that fucking throne herself and rule

livefreeordont
6
5 days ago

Jon would be 100% opposed to that

Cloudhwk
5
5 days ago

If not for the relation he almost certainly would be, Jon is reluctant to take power but she is the one who wants to rule anyway

LifelessDronePraxis
49
5 days ago

The only time someone mentions the idea of marriage is when Tyrion brings it up to Varys, who shoots it down. Varys' reasoning was that 1) Jon Snow wouldn't be down with it, because since he was raised as a Northerner, he'll be weirded out by the incest; and 2) even if they married, Daenerys would dominate Jon.

I think that the showrunners might be implying that at least (1) is true, based on Jon's behavior in episode 4, and the fact that he couldn't tell Daenerys he truly loved her and "finish the job", so to speak, in episode 5. I do find it odd that neither Daenerys nor Jon seem to have come up with the idea on their own, or at least didn't discuss it with each other. Maybe Dany was considering it, but was so disappointed by Jon in episode 5 that she's no longer interested in trying to unite the realm via peaceful means (ie marriage, alliances, etc.)

Doomnezeu
19
5 days ago

I am kinda fine with Jon being weirded out, even though he did smash at the end of season 7, but whatever. What I don't get is why was Daenerys so frightened when Jon told her? Things were still going okayish in 802, save for the fact that the Night King was coming to murder them all. Tyrion still believed in her, Varys as well, but as soon as he told her she looked shattered. Wouldn't you be glad if you found you are not alone anymore in this world, that you have someone that shares your blood?

PK73
29
5 days ago

Well, they smashed before Jon knew who he really was. Now he knows he's her nephew and is likely weirded out by it.

As for Dany, it's not about him being another Targaryen, it's that he's a Targaryen that directly blocks her right to the throne. Westeros knows Jon, they don't know Dany. So even if he doesn't want the throne, him being known to be a Targaryen and the 'rightful king' would mean that any misstep, any unrest, any bit of doubt in her rule would be calls for Jon/Aegon to step in and take her place as the 'true king' and it undermines her rule.

nonpeche
24
5 days ago

I think Dany cares far more about sitting on the throne than anything else in the world. Jon’s claim is stronger and that scares her, despite him saying he doesn’t want it, because he’s shown that the people will rally behind him, which hasn’t happened for Dany in Westeros.

Doomnezeu
5
5 days ago

Well then, if he really feared another Lord Commander situation then he should have kept his mouth shut, once the secret is out it doesn't really matter that he doesn't want the throne. The people that don't like Targaryens are likely to hunt him down and kill him regardless of the fact that he sits on the throne or not. He's even more vulnerable by not accepting the throne.

STUFF416
12
5 days ago

You are very right, but Jon does not have a good self-preservation drive. He may not be his bastard, but Jon is Ned's son. We have watched this folly before in season 1; he is honorable to a fault.

This isn't even the first time Jon's paid for his honor. He wasn't there for Robb, he killed Halfhand, he was shot and almost killed by Ygritte, he invited Stanis's wrath, he imperilled the Nights Watch, he was killed by his brothers, he bent the knee and earned scorn to save his people because that was what honor demanded.

Doomnezeu
5
5 days ago

Fuck me, he really does not know nothing, I think he might die in the last episode, for real this time. Which is a shame, I really liked him, was kinda hoping he would sit on the throne, kinda like Aragorn.

Doomnezeu
12
5 days ago

This is where you see without a shadow of a doubt that we needed more episodes. It's all happening so fast. I'm gonna be really sad if they both die, but I am curious to see how they would go out, if the producers go this route. I think one of the will die for sure.

IrrelevantPuppy
5
5 days ago

The only question is what happens to everyone else if one of them dies? What will her legions of extremely loyal fighters do? What about her dragon? Are we about to watch another war? Gods that’d be depressing.

Doomnezeu
6
5 days ago

I so wished we had another 2-4 episodes at least. Another season would have been the best.

Gataar33
7
5 days ago

Jon is disgusted by the incest thing. The last two episodes, they have kissed for a second, then stopped awkwardly because his heart isn't in it.

SloppyGhost
5
5 days ago

Because he just watch Vary’s burned alive by her dragon for telling people who Jon really is. He also remembered how his father would tell him that the mad king use to do the same thing along with him being taught that who passes the sentence should swing the sword.

Galp_Nation
6
5 days ago

Why hasn't this idea even crossed their minds?

It has though. Jon specifically told Dany it doesn't matter because he doesn't want it and her reply was that it won't matter if he doesn't want it. Once people learn it, they will force the title on him because he's got the love and respect of the people of Westeros. Her whole fear around the truth of Jon's parentage is that she will be cast aside because people will want Jon to rule. That's why she didn't want him to tell anyone.

carlotta4th
438
5 days ago

Definitely Jorah being there was a stabling factor for Dany--he had already convinced her out of burning cities in the past. But Missendei never disagreed with Dany or tried to convince her of anything. They were good friends and losing her definitely made Dany hate Cersei even more, but she wouldn't have actively tried to change Dany's choice.

bulletjournalocd
280
5 days ago

She also pretty much instructed her to seek vengeance with her last word

efrogers
83
5 days ago

Yeah Missandei definitely gave Dany a big nudge towards burning the city

bulletjournalocd
72
5 days ago

"if you have any last words now is the time to say them"

"When the bells toll tell your men to stand down"

King's landing saved!!

DrZerglingMD
17
5 days ago

Missandei and Dany were more or less raised in some pretty brutal cultures where strength is king and they've absorbed it very well into their personal views. Dany definitely has let a lot of this shit goto her head and views herself as some kind of straight up Messiah. Jorah and others tried to gently let her know she was gonna be nothing more than a foreigner who knows nothing of the ways of Westeros. She fucked up by not sending messengers to try and establish initial relations with other Houses and instead of expecting them all to bend the knee. Hell, she thought all the way up until now(s8e4/e5) that Westeros was crying out for her return all these years....when everyone was pretty happy to have the Psycho Targaryens completely gone.

Hell, she can't even take 5 seconds to realize the horrible optics of burning the Tarly's alive after what her father and ancestors have done. She only proved she was a savage conqueror with that act.

AgapeMagdalena
7
5 days ago

And he was either dump enough not to understand that or he just didn't care. In the end his high morals indirectly costed thousands of lives. Sadly he'll probably never understand it and the writers will present it as " he did everything right, but Dany was just psychotic from the very begning, Jon is the best guy here, let's give him the throne".

kris0203
7
5 days ago

I do think Missendei saying “Dracarys” played a part in Dany turning mad, though. She may still have ended up burning the city, but Missendei saying that pretty much solidified it.

SlightlyIncandescent
86
5 days ago

I think like some others have stated, Miss Sunday and Grey Worm seem to have this blind faith in Dany and I've never seen either of them even consider challenging her on anything.

I definitely think Jorah/Barristan would have challenged her on it though, don't think she would have gone the way she did with J-Bear still there.

bucksncats
40
5 days ago

Yeah Jorah is the only one who would've stopped her from massacring King's Landing. Miss Sunday had blind faith in her, so does Grey Warm. Jon and Tyrion had faith in her as their queen but she's destroyed any faith they had by going on her killing rampage

DrZerglingMD
4
5 days ago

Why do people always say only Jorah? Barristan wouldn't have stood for that crap at all and it's clear Dany valued him and his knowledge immensely. Barristan was also a lot more educated and understood Westeros politics, House relations and much more compared to Jorah who was an exiled Northerner.

HotMessPie
9
5 days ago

They were slaves she "freed."

BLOCK_OF_JADE
77
5 days ago

I know Dany has said she'd burn cities to the ground, but I always thought that implied she would target soldiers and military targets while not caring about civilian casualties; not that she would ignore soldiers and military targets in favor of intentionally targeting innocent civilians.

People talk about how Missandei and Jorah tempered her worst tendencies and kept a lid on her temper. I cannot remember a single time Danny was talked out of murdering innocent women and children by either Jorah or Missandei. For me, that's the disconnect. Those advisors never said 'don't murder-burn innocent women and children so you can rule by fear' because she never suggested it. Am I forgetting a scene?

Pksoze
72
5 days ago

Dany made many sacrifices for the innocent. She chained up her own dragons, she married a man she didn’t love, and she allowed things like the fighting pits for peace.

Dany at her most ruthless never punished innocents.

15knives
28
5 days ago

Not innocents she could see and hear. Abstract numbers never bothered her. She did want to burn down city in the past. But she just saw cities as the same as the people who ruled them and never thought about the people actually being ruled.

She really only thought about slaves because she had seen some and then became best friends with one who ad been a slave before she freed her.

MikeMars1225
10
5 days ago

Except for the time she burned a few of the new Master family heads alive after brokering a truce between them.

I realize it was because she suspected some of the to have been collaborating with The Harpies, but she had no direct evidence on any of them. So for all she knew, she was sentencing innocent people to death.

enz1ey
6
5 days ago

So I guess we're just gonna forget her motivation for killing them? That they were leading a guerrilla warfare campaign against her?

Droopywiener
10
5 days ago

As soon as I heard the bells start ringing not even half way into the episode I knew something bad was about to happen.

Urtehnoes
10
5 days ago

Funny enough, I've decided to start re-watching the whole series again last week. Just made it to the end of Season 2 when Stannis attacks KL. They ring bells and a few of them say "Are they surrendering? I've never known bells to mean surrender."

Not sure if they were tongue in cheek about cities misusing bells intentionally to mislead their enemies, but it was kind of weird in context of just watching S8EP5.

justinh_tx
47
5 days ago

I don't have an issue with the fact that she turned... I have an issue with how poorly her turn was written. It's very similar to how Dany and Jon meet and fall in love in about 5 minutes of screen time and half of a conversation last season. I didn't buy that then and I'm not buying this now.

Dany going all mad queen could have been brilliant. I expect that when George writes it, it will be. The show, however, did a shit job of it.

Mediocre_UK_Bot
6
5 days ago

Absolutely agree. In no way does my dissatisfaction stem from what happened to Dany but HOW it occured and wasn't developed as much as it needs to be

sharksnrec
42
5 days ago

I, unlike a lot of people don’t really have an issue with her turn

From what I've seen, the issue many have is not so much with her turn in and of itself (any bum could've made a guess early on that she might end up as Mad Queen Dany), but moreso how she got to that point and the actual execution of the whole thing

bulletjournalocd
6
5 days ago

If shed have aimed for military targets/the red keep and disregarded civilians it would have made way more sense - but intentionally burning civilians for shits and giggles makes no sense at all

PancakesAndPenguins
12
5 days ago

^ totally agree!!

DepressedHermit1
6
5 days ago

That's basically what they say in the Inside the Episode https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W8j6wOvxuo. David explains that Dany has always been reined in by her close friendships and she's suddenly lost all of them. She feels isolated and alone and there's no one she can trust because Jon doesn't love her, Tyrion betrayed her by telling Varys, and Varys tried to overthrow her. There's no one by her side that cares about her and she knows that. In the Game Revealed for this episode, Miguel also talks about how she hears the bells and she looks over King's Landings and she just feels emptiness (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQ9QQMXTftY&t). Her life basically has no meaning at this point. She's lost everyone she loves, all the connections that made life worth living. The only thing she has is her claim to the Iron Throne. So she burns the whole place down because she's so filled with grief and rage and despair that nothing else matters besides inflicting all that pain she feels on everyone else around her. It's really tragic imo. I had loved her and been rooting for her. I really wish Jorah hadn't died because I really don't think this would have happened had he been by her side.

GluedToTheMirror
5
5 days ago

The fact that she needed Jorah and Missandei alive by her side to keep her level headed and from torching innocent women and children is enough to know she is not fit to rule.

15knives
232
5 days ago

face it, he'd have been really happy jon spurned her!

OSRS_Satriani
109
5 days ago

And more than happy to be her rebound!

Hugh_Jampton
48
5 days ago

I don't think so. He wanted to be with her yes but failing that he wanted to see her happy. I think he'd be truly dejected by this outcome. He'd obey her any command but with a very heavy heart after seeing what she's become

HarrietVane-Jones
9
5 days ago

For thirty seconds until she crushed him again.

15knives
5
5 days ago

the mad bitch!

JashanChittesh
26
5 days ago

but his love for Dany brought out the best side of him each time

And also, out of her.

talionTHEpalantiri
10
5 days ago

Fuck, I just noticed Daenerys could've possibly went to Jorah after Jon's revelation if he hadn't of died...

my dreams

rouen-ds
13
5 days ago

Of course, she naturally would go to her best friend ;)

And discuss her emotions, perhaps share a friendly hug, like friends do.

talionTHEpalantiri
5
5 days ago

Yes...like friends

:(

PhillipJCoulson
1260
5 days ago

And Kat died not knowing Ned was always faithful and igrette died knowing Jon snow was an idiot.

THE_Batman_121
481
5 days ago

That part always bugged me man. Ned was so fucking honorable but his family always had to look at him differently because of Jon. Shit Cat said she was fine with the cheating. It was having Jon live with them that killed her but Ned was just looking out for his Nephew.

Sunderpool
210
5 days ago

He knew that if he messed up it ment the death of his nephew.

What would be worse, having people look down on you or knowing that you caused the death of your nephew that you gave a vow to your sister on her deathbed that you would protect that child.

THE_Batman_121
111
5 days ago

Oh I'm not shitting on his choice at all I get it 100 percent and agree. It's just the fact that he actually had done nothing to dishonor his wife or family that kind of got to me.

To hold a secret for 15 years having people harbor hate for you for something that never even happened must have been tough.

EDIT: I would love for her to find out in the books as Stoneheart somehow. Thatd be nice haha

MSeanF
15
5 days ago

In the books, I always thought Lady Stoneheart would be the one to bring Jon to life after he was stabbed in the heart.

THE_Batman_121
17
5 days ago

Sacrificing her second life for his would be amazing.

MSeanF
5
5 days ago

I still hope that's how the books handle it. Unfortunately, I have a sick feeling that Melisandre will use Shireen's sacrifice to bring him back.

giggglygirl
11
5 days ago

Right? He was so honorable I wish he would’ve just told her about this! And then Jon wouldn’t have grown up with Cat scowling at him.

The_Joe_
6
5 days ago

Ned knew what Jon never learned.

There are no secrets once more than one person know them.

astronoob
5
5 days ago

No one seems to get this: Ned wasn't as honorable as he let on. When Bran views the fight at the Tower of Joy, he's stunned to realize that Arthur Dayne was stabbed in the back by Howland Reed because the story he was always told was that Ned had bested him in combat. In other words, Ned had never told people the truth. Also, in flashbacks, it's clear that Ned was a very different person when he was younger.

sandbagging4
23
5 days ago

I was life wtf, that is surprisingly close to my gaming handle...

ConsumeAdderall
7
5 days ago

Forever Ogre Tote to me now.

guest2342
11
5 days ago

*Cat and Ygritte

Honoras763
5
5 days ago

Well Jon is still a idiot.

TheNightQueen0806
708
5 days ago

Bring him back so he can say 'Khaleesi please' one more time and she'll yield

beet111
332
5 days ago

i don't know why but I always loved when he called her Khaleesi.

Aikidi
362
5 days ago

Cause Iain Glen whisper-beckoning you is one of the most erotic sounds imaginable.

Hugh_Jampton
122
5 days ago
  • BRB. Switching my sleep sounds from Gentle Ocean Waves to Gentle Iain Glenn Whispering on loop
bLouGoo
84
5 days ago

You won’t sleep well because you will be too horny every night.

[deleted]
39
5 days ago

[removed]

purpldevl
6
5 days ago

That would make me so uncomfortable lmao

PMTITS_4BadJokes
8
5 days ago

D&D: “We kinda forgot we are not gay.”

Aikidi
8
5 days ago

Tbf a lot of us forget that listening to Jorah.

atom786
6
5 days ago

He needs to narrate an audiobook

Aikidi
8
5 days ago

He can narrate the fucking dictionary for all I care.

Regrube
5
5 days ago

https://youtu.be/KeOIh8QDGhg hopefully you'll enjoy this as much as I do

TheNightQueen0806
5
5 days ago

lmao it's so funny to me that he used to say it so often

Gludens
48
5 days ago

Ironic isn't it?

microcosmic5447
179
5 days ago

No, just tragic. Or logical. Depending on how you look at it.

Ironic would be if Jorah was resurrected by R'hllor and, being a fire-wight, Jorah was even more in love with Kelly C than ever after she flame-deluged all over everybody.

nicecriticism
27
5 days ago

Ironic is like rain on your running day.

hotcapicola
18
5 days ago

running day?

NihilistKurtWarner
11
5 days ago

It’s a free ride when you’re eating some lays

blackmagicwolfpack
9
5 days ago

Like 10,000 spoons when all you want is a wife.

nicecriticism
8
5 days ago

I haven’t heard this song since 1995, guys. Sorry.

Juniebean
11
5 days ago

Wedding day

darrenespinosa
17
5 days ago

Running day lmao

A_Bit_Of_Nonsense
5
5 days ago

It's not a story the northmen would tell you.

CitizenCAN_mapleleaf
4
5 days ago

... don't ya think ...

Libra904
146
5 days ago

This.

Whenever I think about Jorah and Dany’s relationship, I always remember Dany’s thoughts from A Clash of Kings:
My great bear... I am his queen, but I will always be his cub as well

pizzagrowsontrees
12
5 days ago

This! I just love how GRRM can convey POV character's emotions so transparently. If you take that line and dissect it, you will find a myriad of various emotions just in that one line. Fucking fantastic!

cuprumFire
9
5 days ago

I think she saw him as a father figure to keep her in check. Now that he's dead, she can do what she wants without the fatherly glares.

DodgeTrooper
4
5 days ago

Also when Missandei was killed. A part inside of her just snapped.

MindPattern
304
5 days ago

If he was still alive, she wouldn't have done what she did.

iBeFloe
239
5 days ago

He would’ve never left her alone in her chambers to wallow over what she would later do in Kings Landing. He would’ve been right beside her the entire time in silence. Even Jon, when he came back, said she shouldn’t have been left alone. That was a huge mistake to let her grieve like that.

She always needed guidance for her thoughts. Leaving her alone let her make decisions she would later regret.

MixmasterJrod
76
5 days ago

100% this. People change and evolve. I believe she was who he thought her to be. But events led her to change for the worse. There are many cliches that state a person never really changes, but I wholeheartedly disagree. I've changed as a person many times, for better and worse.

disguised4lien
175
5 days ago

Except Greyworm, Jon, Tyrion, Drogon, Daario, her fans ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

comrade_batman
221
5 days ago

Greyworm lost any morals he had when Missandei was killed, the old Grey Worm would never have killed men who surrendered.

Jon and Tyrion are already turning against her after she burnt the city, after they had surrendered. Tyrion is just too afraid to speak out against her and Jon is conflicted with his feelings for her.

Drogon will do whatever she tells him to do and Daario hasn’t seen her since she left Meeren. She’s a very different person to the one he loved. He probably would have been fine with her first acts against KL, but not when she started to burn innocent civilians.

ruanl1
178
5 days ago

I feel like Daario always knew what she was.

You were not made to sit in a palace

What was I made for?

You're a conqueror, Daenerys Stormborn

But that was part of the problem, he admired and often encouraged her worst impulses.

MsViolaSwamp
33
5 days ago

Man, is Dario coming back? Also we know Yara is back on the iron islands but will she make another showing? They also did a piss poor job of wrapping up the sand snakes story. Like, did they die? I know the one gal was poisoned, but no follow up after they were held prisoner by Cersei. They’ve rushed so much this season I hope we can get some closure with some of the other outside characters.

cormega
42
5 days ago

There is one episode left. Dario is not coming back.

TriforceOfCourage3
26
5 days ago

I'm really hoping they do a fly by of all the characters before it's over

ilikebourbon_
59
5 days ago

Id prefer an 80’s movie montage where they take a still frame and provide an update on their lives now

PEIFella
14
5 days ago

Or liks band of brothers and have them all playing baseball

ManBearPig92
5
5 days ago

Nah I want the Onion to be right and have end with a cast wide dance number lmao

LadyJulieC
19
5 days ago

The daughter was poisoned and presumably died quickly, and the mother was to be kept alive long enough to watch her daughter rot. I think it was pretty nicely wrapped up, and reminds me of when Septa Ulenna or whatever her name is presumably died offscreen being tortured by the mountain. We don’t see it but we knew their fate.

MonteTristo
6
5 days ago

"died quickly" she was poisoned with The Long Farewell wasnt she? haha

Fenstick
9
5 days ago

2 of the Sand Snakes died when they were attacked by Euron, 1 was poisoned.

Business_Clerk
61
5 days ago

I am 100% sure that when he threw Missandeis collar in the flames it was not only symbolizing "Missandei wasn't a slave" but also that Greyworm is back to being Unsullied.

comrade_batman
30
5 days ago

I mean Grey Worm from Season 3-7. He had Missandei to be his emotional anchor. He would never have done that if Missandei was alive, she would’ve been horrified.

DeadeyeDuncan
59
5 days ago

lol, Missandei basically told Dany to burn the place down. All of Dany's followers have a brutal edge.

vagabond_dilldo
27
5 days ago

Me sundae should have just grabbed Cersei and jumped off the wall with her. EZ flawless victory.

donutbomb
12
5 days ago

"Me sundae", the Irishwoman who dropped her ice cream

TrainOfThought6
5
5 days ago

I don't think we can really hold that against him, considering the only alternative was dying himself.

Foucatswim
7
5 days ago

We don't have to hold it against him, but if he believes that it's his queen's wish, I'm sure he won't hesitate.

Likesorangejuice
9
5 days ago

I'm guessing that grey worm is going to come around in the last episode. He killed those men out of rage and loss, and because that's what his queen was doing. I think he's going to be incredibly remorseful following that slaughter. He's going to realize that danaerys is no better than the slavers, that he followed her because she was the breaker of chains but now she is the murderer of children. If Jon isn't the one that kills her in the final episode then I expect it to be grey worm, as he tells her that she is not the person he loved anymore, and then departs for naath in missandei's memory.

reddittrashporngood
18
5 days ago

Nah, Greyworms bout to die at the side of his Mad King.

Fenstick
4
5 days ago

the old Grey Worm would never have killed men who surrendered.

If he was ordered to, he 100% would have. That's what the Unsullied do.

Squelcher121
164
5 days ago

Grey Worm is ultimately still an unsullied. Missandei was his tie to humanity, but she is now gone. Grey Worm and all the remaining unsullied will follow Daenerys regardless of what she does or what she commands them to do.

iwanthidan
123
5 days ago

Grey Worm was basically cheering for her after Dany started burning the city. He is the most loyal subject she ever had. In his eyes she also took revenge for Missandei so the unsullied will definitely defend her to their last man.

Kins97
35
5 days ago

Keep in mind she freed the unsullied by slaughtering and burning Astapor so they have a unique perspective

janbrunt
7
5 days ago

I have always wished the show had explored their experience and perspectives more. Ultimately this show is all about the Great Man/Woman and neglects the low-born people for high drama and fantasy tropes. The books feel a bit more grounded. Missed opportunity for rich narrative in my humble opinion. Would have loved to explore the friendships, opinions, and struggles of being a freed slave raised from infancy to be a killing machine. They choose to follow Danaerys— the show never really explores why beyond a very facile level. How do you learn to have agency when you were so completely denied any at all? How do they reckon with a lifetime of murder? Do they feel nothing at all?

puckbeaverton
35
5 days ago

He is her mountain now.

Doctorphotograph
24
5 days ago

Her fans lol

Me4onyX
32
5 days ago

In the ep6 intro we saw the dothraki cheering a lot. I'm pretty sure they enjoyed this and are still super loyal to her.

joetheogre
47
5 days ago

To them, she is the stallion that mounts the world. They love her

Doorknob11
49
5 days ago

She’s also the one that made them respawn. So they do own her that.

AprilsMostAmazing
4
5 days ago

disagree. I think Jon is responsible for the respawn, he is the guy that came back from the dead.

ImJustMe2
24
5 days ago

I don't think Jon telling his sisters meant he didnt believe in Dany. However, it was during her conversation with Jon about not telling that I saw the first spark of Oh Shit this season. When she begged him because "You will take what it MINE" Just by virtue of saying that to him she no longer deserved his belief.

BoinkBoinkEtAliae
10
5 days ago

If your Queen tells you not to tell people a secret that threatens her rule, especially to one of your sisters who is openly defying her, you're probably not all that invested in your Queen no matter what you want to tell yourself.

ImJustMe2
12
5 days ago

But she didnt TELL him not to, she ASKED him not to. She even said to Tyrion "He told them even though I begged him not to." She could have commanded it I suppose, but she didnt. Myabe it was her way of testing him, who knows, but she did not forbid him in any way from telling, she made a request.

ETA: Also, like I said, the simple fact that she referred to it as "What is rightfully MINE" negated, for me anyway, any loyalty I might have had.

EGaruccio
3
5 days ago

Yes, Tyrion and Jon are not on her side. They don't truly believe in her vision.

Tyrion is ultimately still a man of the wheel.

CarpeDiem96
11
5 days ago

She left behind the idea of breaking the wheel. D&D forgot.

the_che
6
5 days ago

They don't truly believe in her vision.

By vision you mean burning civilians alive for no reason? Can't blame them.

karangoswamikenz
3
5 days ago

Honestly why does dany have a say in Jon telling his family who he really is?

That’s where she lost Jon.

But you’re right about the holed up in her room part. I felt it was really sad for Tyrion and Varys to not talk to Daenerys.

Can you imagine how she must’ve felt? My advisors don’t trust me with critical knowledge anymore, they think I’m some kind of monster despite me having lost my armies, my friends and my children for them, to save them. The moment they saw that my best girl friend was murdered in front of my eyes, they assumed I’m going to lose it and jumped ship to Jon snow.

It’s like dany went through this horrible tragedy of losing her best friends and children in front of her eyes and we still don’t hear a single word of concern or anger from Tyrion or Varys. They just jump ship immediately.

Tyrion or Varys: “Cersei needs to pay for this!, she has gone completely barbaric and evil, we need to put an end to her by any means necessary, but with the least amount of innocent deaths possible, queen Daenerys we recommend you destroy the scorpion battlements, the iron fleet and the red keep with drogon while the unsullied take the city forces and the northmen evacuate the people to safety, we can defeat Cersei and win the people over in one fell swoop. My sister has gone too far, she is beyond saving. Missandei was the most innocent person I know, she did not deserve this”

Something like this would’ve made Daenerys act a little more sane perhaps. But instead they choose to just go “omg dany gonna go crazy let’s jump ship” immediately despite Daenerys having shown them that she isn’t all evil in the past.

liberulo
5
5 days ago

I wouldn't say I'm a fan of hers, but I definitely didn't turn on her as fast as evidently most of the viewerbase. I still support her more than I ever supported the people of KL. And before you go calling them innocent, I still remember them cheering on Ned Stark's beheading.

taythescotsman
179
5 days ago

The tragedy of Jorah is deeply human - he loved Daenerys for something he wanted her to be, not for what she really is.

secretbutton
57
5 days ago

absolutely agree. even in S1 he first says to her, "you have a gentle heart," which she immediately rejects.

croquetica
49
5 days ago

When you look at a person through rose-colored glasses, all the red flags just look like flags.

Makualax
5
5 days ago

I've never heard that quote but goddamn... thats a good one

demoliceros
14
5 days ago

Right, he saw her to be truly great because of his love, not the other way around. She has a lot of amazing qualities but I don't think she was meant to be the savior of the world or anything. But he loved her endlessly and saw her that way.

Qiuyue
87
5 days ago

His death was one of the factors that pushed her over the edge, but after all is said and done, it was more merciful for him to die believing in her perfection than to live to see his idealized version of her shattered.

Clitfindel
69
5 days ago

It probably wouldn't have happened if he lived....that's kind of the point. She didn't magically become evil. She was broken. Broken to a shell of a human being and lost every single thing she loved in her life - almost all at once. A big one was him.

balourder
8
5 days ago

Almost all of the main characters lost most of what they love, but only a few of them became cruel and went on murder rampages. Unfortunately for her, Dany had the power to go full scorched earth.

Clitfindel
10
5 days ago

Yeah but they’re also all unique circumstances. In hers, she was truly alone in this world after losing her entire family (almost) and being on the run from assassins. He was the first to show loyalty and kindness and acted like the big brother vicerys wasn’t. She lost a lot in losing him. Not enough to make her go crazy, but enough to open that door and without him, the morally induced inhibition was gone. Add it losing everything else she lost so suddenly and we get episode 5.

musefan8959
25
5 days ago

Well he sold and traded slaves, so it was pretty clear he's not the most morally upright person

merkmerk73
50
5 days ago

To be fair, he sold and traded slaves that were criminals (poachers I think) on his land to try and pay for his high maintenance wife

It's a little more grey than "sold and traded slaves" at face value.

jlitwinka
26
5 days ago

And the alternative was send them to the wall which is basically slavery with extra steps.

dadankness
6
5 days ago

Eek Barba Durkle, somebody is gonna get laid in college

galactic_punt
12
5 days ago

He also seemed to express remorse for it when confronted about it. He embarrassed himself, his house, and his family. I think he learned his lesson, considering he gave up Longclaw to Jon Snow.

arimill
26
5 days ago

I think him dying is part of the reason she went mad. If she had someone like Jorah at her side during her KL victory, I doubt she would have felt the victory to be so hollow so as to go crazy.

SereneWisdom
12
5 days ago

I agree. Her madness came from, in my opinion, the loss of two of her dragons, Jorah, Missandei, the betrayals of her closest advisers, and Jon's change in behavior once he learned who he was. She was/is grieving a bunch of things. Grief can make people become emotionally unstable and act out to do things that they might not do if they were in a better frame of mind.

Impfuriosa
14
5 days ago

Well if he were alive , she probably wouldn’t have ReASoNs to burn the city or at least she wouldn’t feel that much lonely.

delahunt
48
5 days ago

This is literally what is happening with Daenerys.

She had: Jon, Tyrion, Varys, Jorah, Missandei, Grey Worm as her advisors/close circle.

Jon is the most recent addition.

In Mereen, Tyrion/Jorah talked her down from burning down cities, and she listened because she trusted them and it worked out. It made things harder at times, but it worked.

However, Jorah had to go when they came to Westeros because he was sick. Tyrion suddenly went from asset to liability once they were fighting his house and his family. And Varys always made it clear he played his own game. Missandei and Grey Worm while close to her, are not and have never been the talk you down people. They follow her lead. In a lot of ways Grey Worm is only there because of the Unsullied. He's a presence, but not really a full advisor - or so it has been shown. If anything he's more a "we can do it this way" not a "we should/should not do this" person.

So Jorah dies saving her from the dead. Tyrion is still a liability and cares more about saving his sister's life - the sister that wants him dead btw - than helping his queen take the throne. Varys out and out betrayed her. Missandei is killed by Cersei. Jon wouldn't keep one small secret for her (and yes, him being Aegon is a small secret that impacts no one if he has no desire to the throne.)

So she has no one left. The tipping point, the last straw, is in that moment alone with Jon.

D: A queen can rule with love or fear, and no one will love me.

J: I love you. You'll always be my queen.

D: But do you love me or am I your queen?

J: ...

D: Fear then

So not only will her last tie to her humanity not keep a secret for her, he also won't be with her as a woman and person. He will support her as a queen. That's it. She is alone.

And as the old Targaryen in the Night's Watch once said, a Targaryen alone is a terrible thing.

Now they could have given that descent more time, but they didn't give themselves that time. The pieces are still there though.

Impfuriosa
5
5 days ago

I wish we could see this as complex feelings in a looong time period that they could construct (power, vengence, rage, loneliness etc). I feel very sad for Emilia. Imagine spending your youth for a character and get lost in character’s mind all those years and all of a sudden. Poff! Your best years are WASTED just because the concerns of show runners.

GermanWineLover
9
5 days ago

GoT ist also a lot about people protecting something into people. The tragic about Daenerys' storyline is that people WANT to see her as the perfect savior and willingly ignory contrary indications. (And there were many.)

YoBuckStopsHere
10
5 days ago

Jorah was blinded by his love. Dany was always a cruel and insensitive to the innocent people of the realm.

Jon is the only one who would be able to rule justly. Now it is too late, Dany The Mad Queen will rule with Fire and Blood.

bigpasmurf
6
5 days ago

Jon is too naive to rule effectively though

revis1985
7
5 days ago

I believe she went mad because she had no more true friends left alive that hadn't let her down, and Tyrion barely guided her the way she needed.

Jorah wouldn't only have kept her sane, but guided her to the throne the right way.

Too bad ser barristan also died, those two were her shepherds.

I like this tragic ending to her, her sitting on that throne would've been the worst ending.

Imafilthybastard
5
5 days ago

Jorah is like that guy who follows a toxic girl helplessly because she's pretty and he's pathetic. She shits on him constantly, yet he follows like a lap dog. Maybe Dany is so disillusioned because of all of the bullshit flattery Jorah fed her.

____Sam
4
5 days ago

I was thinking about this earlier. I wonder how her mindset would've changed if he was with her in the battle?

merkmerk73
3
5 days ago

If Jorah was still alive she wouldn't have done what she did.

S3ph1r01h
4
5 days ago

It's arguable that his death contributed to this end

dannymb87
4
5 days ago

Most of the reason she burninated Kings Landing was because she didn’t have Jorah advising her.

mrjowei
5
5 days ago

I think Daenerys is still a good person. D&D failed to justify her sudden madness and thirst for blood so to me, she's the same good hearted queen.

SerBoosie
5
5 days ago

One of the primary reasons Daenerys did what she did is that she no longer had anyone she could trust or rely on that was close to her. She felt more alone than ever, even more so than when she was with Viserys. I think this is what ultimately pushed her over the edge. Jorah's precense could have greatly influenced her decision.

BrianTheBlueberry
3
5 days ago

Jorah’s death is one of the many stepping stones that led to her breaking point. If he had lived, perhaps she wouldn’t have snapped...