IrishB_Cubed
3657
4 days ago

It is one of the most beautiful, artistic, and historical buildings in all of Europe, it is absolutely a catastrophe that it may fully collapse from this fire.

fupayme411
741
4 days ago

Hopefully, it can be restored/rebuilt.

Minuteman1776Q
498
4 days ago

It’s not the same at that point in my opinion idk I wanna know how this happened.

Kirome
313
4 days ago

What we got so far according to the police report is that they were undergoing renovations.

Alberto-Balsalm
224
4 days ago

I was last there in 2005 and it was undergoing renovations then! Seems to never stop sadly.

theswannwholaughs
450
4 days ago

well old churches are old.

MrCamie
122
4 days ago

True. I live in Rouen, the cathedrale there always has a part of it being renovated. The last time it didn't have any scaffolding on it was 4 years ago and it was the first time for at least 20 years

deftspyder
243
4 days ago

The church is now in Rouen as well.

Pizza4Fromages
101
4 days ago

Lol, being French it took me a while to realize you were pronouncing it like "ruin", good one

NiceFetishMeToo
44
4 days ago

Get out.

abrowserofreddit
32
4 days ago

Alright I usually don’t do this because it’s tacky but it’s r/punpatrol, put your keyboard where I can see it.

Past_Administration
2
4 days ago

I rue the day I get busted.

History_buff60
9
4 days ago

facepalm

Crish-P-Bacon
2
4 days ago

Pun hero.

Maximus125
2
4 days ago

I heard one church in Germany took 700 years just to build

eveningsand
26
4 days ago

I was there around the same time.

Was just commenting to a friend how i regret being too damn tired to snap any photos of the cathedral.

Alberto-Balsalm
17
4 days ago

Dang! I was lucky enough to take quite a few pictures of both outside and inside. Hard to believe most of that is gone now.

theswannwholaughs
4
4 days ago

well old churches are old.

Slovene
15
4 days ago

Echo

theswannwholaughs
1
4 days ago

well old churches are old.

Slovene
8
4 days ago

Echo

Lunker42
2
4 days ago

I was there in 1997 and it was undergoing renovations then as well.

PeterMus
2
4 days ago

Renovations of such old sites are an ongoing process which pratically never stops. What seems simple could take years of meticulous labor to accomplish.

lassadinho
2
4 days ago

From what I've heard on the french news, The renovations were supposed to last 20 to 25 years.

CharlieEch042
2
4 days ago

Well, it took over 180 years to build...renovations take time too.

mcchunx
2
4 days ago

Notre Dame has been under construction most of its life.

Minuteman1776Q
35
4 days ago

They have been for awhile. I’m thinking either that or arson. I’m sure we’ll find out in next 24h.

vanyali
58
4 days ago

I’m guessing it probably had a copper or other metal roof. The way you install or repair one of those is with a welding torch. Roofers cause fires all the time.

So my money is on a roofer with a welding torch.

Second runner up would be electrical.

GerardWayNoWay
18
4 days ago

There were no workers today

vanyali
44
4 days ago

Ok, electrical just moved in to the #1 spot.

MintLaurel
14
4 days ago

I’m glad there were no workers present. Could you imagine the guilt the worker responsible would have?

PutYourDeathMaskOn
3
4 days ago

I appreciate your username.

Pendragn
3
4 days ago

That's exactly how the spire on the old Catholic church in my town went up. It was my first thought when I saw the pictures of Notre Dame. It's a damn shame that we haven't figured out a safer way to do these repairs yet.

Roofer_Ryan
2
4 days ago

Was thinking more that a part of building was torch down rolled roofing, fire can smoulder in insulation for a long time. I’ve only ever seen metal roofs bring crimped, not welded.

vanyali
4
4 days ago

Copper gets welded.

Roofer_Ryan
8
4 days ago

Actually I believe it gets soldered but ok

copeyhagen
5
4 days ago

Name checks out, I go with you

vanyali
3
4 days ago

No you’re right, soldered.

els3823
2
4 days ago

Third would be cigarette

COL0NEL_ANGUS
5
4 days ago

Not to bring out the tinfoil hat

Brings out tin foil hat...

Rrxb2
84
4 days ago

Good old ship of theseus. If I take a boat and replace every board on it, is it still the same boat? If I took apart that boat and rebuilt it somewhere else with the original boards, is it still the same thing?

Misdreamer
50
4 days ago

That's exactly what I was thinking, though I lean towards not caring. If the ship looks the same and works the same, does it matter if it's the same after all?

I really want to go see Notre Dame, when they eventually finish the restoration. Not going because it's not 'the original one' would just be strange, and it's not like I could tell the difference anyway.

Redtwoo
25
4 days ago

Exactly, if it's rebuilt to look the same, using the same types of materials, it'd be a close enough reproduction to still merit interest.

Though, to the Ship of Theseus question, I'd say the new cathedral would be a reproduction of the original, not the original itself.

Misdreamer
7
4 days ago

Though, to the Ship of Theseus question, I'd say the new cathedral would be a reproduction of the original, not the original itself.

And yet you would still call it Notre Dame, wouldn't you?

Redtwoo
3
4 days ago

As that's the title of the building, sure, but it would more accurately by called the Notre Dame version 3 or whatever for however many times it's been (more or less) fully rebuilt. Every copy of a book shares the same title but they're not all the exact same book are they? No, inside they're marked with significant information about the printing that helps differentiate different versions of the reproduction.

Misdreamer
8
4 days ago

But when you get a book you don't look at what year it was printed in, or where. You look at the title, you look at the content. Those are the same, the core is the same. When I go to Notre Dame in 10 years, or however long it will take to rebuild, I'm not going to care that it was destroyed and rebuilt. It will still be Notre Dame, the artwork and the architecture will be the same. I, and arguably most people, wouldn't even know the difference if we weren't told.

aurumae
6
4 days ago

Though, to the Ship of Theseus question, I'd say the new cathedral would be a reproduction of the original, not the original itself.

This view gets interesting when you turn it around on yourself. If all the cells in your body get replaced every ~10 years, does that make you a reproduction of your younger self? In what sense can you claim to be the same person as ‘you’ 10+ years ago?

Redtwoo
6
4 days ago

No, I'm not a reproduction of myself- cells have been added and removed, in addition to being replaced. I resemble me from ten years ago, I'm very similar, I have many of his memories, but they're not exactly the same. And I have new memories that he didn't have, knowledge and experience he didn't have yet.

I'm not the same human I was then, but I have his identity as a facet of my own. We are not congruent people.

roguemerc96
3
4 days ago

Was just talking to my mom about this as we had fond memories. I mean, stones being replace, whatever, but was the stained glass simple copies? Because besides the artwork, that seems like the biggest loss.

_zenith
5
4 days ago

That's the functionalist argument, and I also agree with it

mercury24
2
4 days ago

We look at art in museums that are replications all the time and nobody complains. I’d just imagine it’s the same thing.

Misdreamer
3
4 days ago

It seems a lot of people are complaining though, saying it's just not the same. I disagree, but they are entitled to their opinion as much as I am to mine.

SeryaphFR
2
4 days ago

The spot where Napoleon grabbed the Emperor's crown from the Pope and crowned himself will still be in the same exact spot.

auskier
2
4 days ago

Its not its first fire and rebuild. It has had numerous things happen to it over the centuries. Its far from 'original'.

Minuteman1776Q
5
4 days ago

My point is every time i look at it in the future I will always imagine the fire like idk it’ll just feel different. Like I don’t know I get what you guys mean it’s just more of a mental thing.

TheWolFlower
9
4 days ago

You can say that, because the fire happened in your lifetime and in an era with massive online news to publicize it. I bet if they restore it faithfully (every inch of that building has been photographed, so they definitely could do it), in 100 years most of the people who visit it won’t be aware of the fire and that they’re not looking at the original Notre Dame.

COL0NEL_ANGUS
20
4 days ago

Kind of like yesterday when people weren't aware they were not looking at the original Notre Dame.

hphirving
6
4 days ago

I completely relate with the feeling, it will feel different, but I don’t think it will make a HUGE difference if we acknowledge the fact that the building was rebuilt with means and materials from the 18th century instead of the “originals”.

jmizzle
3
4 days ago

The real loss are all of the art, history, and irreplaceable artifacts contained within.

Matti_Matti_Matti
15
4 days ago

It’s been restored before. We have never seen the original.

Incredulous_Toad
11
4 days ago

I saw from another reddit thread that it was an electrical fire. As far as I know, that's the culprit.

theswannwholaughs
5
4 days ago

Why wouldn't it be the same non of the things you see on notre dame are originals from the 1500s if we rebuild it it will be the same no differences it'll be like a big renovation.

er-day
5
4 days ago

It was rebuilt already, once having been damaged from the french revolution.

Jablon15
4
4 days ago

From my understanding a lot of historical buildings have been, at least, partially rebuilt and restored especially In Europe after 2 world wars and countless others. I do agree that it will never be the same. At least if restored properly now to its original state, hundreds of years from now other generations can enjoy and admire the beauty and history with this fire being another thing to add to the tremendous history that has happened in this cathedral.

Werrf
5
4 days ago

It's a living building - always has been. The building isn't the bricks and beams, it's the history and the cultural significance. This will be another event in Notre Dame's great story.

JohnnyRelentless
2
4 days ago

It was rebuilt after the Revolution as well.

Ashenspire
2
4 days ago

Of course its not the same. It's something changed forever. But The fire will be part of its history. It'll still be Notre Dame if it can be restored.

maggotlegs502
2
4 days ago

Hasn't it already been rebuilt multiple times?

Indy_is_a_Puppy
2
4 days ago

Im gunna be so mad if it was a person who started this fire.

MangoCats
2
4 days ago

If the stones are cut and stacked the same way they were originally, I think that qualifies as a faithful reproduction - best that can be expected, and certainly better than leaving it in ruins.

I was pretty shocked at how much of the Mayan pyramids had been "restored" after they were uncovered in the jungles.

teruma
2
4 days ago

Consider how many times its been rebuilt throughout history already.

aCollectionOfQuarks
2
4 days ago

I mean the spire was already going through a renovation. The roof was mainly from the 19th century with some parts from the original. The statues inside were removed for repair/maintenance 4 days prior. The stone ceiling inside is still in tact. The towers are ok.

Point is that we’re lucky it didn’t end up worse, and with renovations and repairs it can come back to its glory.

Criticalmak
2
4 days ago

I think it's been destroyed and rebuilt several times now.

ExplodingToasterOven
2
4 days ago

A few careless chops with an angle grinder, a piece of plastic in just the wrong place. Foosh, up she goes.

But, she's been gutted and overhauled three times in the last 500 years. Before Notre Dame, there were other buildings going back possibly 3k years or better. Various sacred spots, different cultures. Always something interesting there.

Thin-White-Duke
1
4 days ago

Notre Dame used to look like shit. Victor Hugo was instrumental in kicking of the whole preservation-of-historical-landmarks thing in France.

GuessImScrewed
150
4 days ago

The stained glass windows are irreplacable and (probably) the biggest loss from all this. The techniques used to make them have been lost, they can't be replaced.

pocketknifeMT
65
4 days ago

Well, isn't there a shelf life on stained glass anyway though? I thought it all eventually thins out to the point it can drop out of place over a couple centuries?

Surely we have techniques that are as aesthetically pleasing, if not the same.

I know medieval designers would have loved being able to work with float glass and the sort of optical clarity that brings.

Surely humanity today can build a stained glass public art installation to put medieval humanity to shame?

GuessImScrewed
80
4 days ago

Sure, but as the kid who's bought a new cat after the old one dies says, "it's just not the same..."

RogueOneisbestone
64
4 days ago

But then you give it a few years and you grow to love it like you loved your past cat.

Crish-P-Bacon
4
4 days ago

It’s not the same unless you make your new cat grow from the dead carcass of your old cat... and in that case I will not be so sure it is another cat.

Nonchalant_Turtle
3
4 days ago

Why would it thin?

Cablancer2
98
4 days ago

It was already heavily restored in the 19th century; about half it of wasn't original.

_No_Donkey_Brains_
69
4 days ago

Yes people need to understand, wood doesn’t last 1,000 years. The stones themselves apparently crumble to the touch in some parts.

The entire thing needed to be heavily restored, and they were in the middle of doing so. If and when she’s rebuilt she’ll look exactly the way she did before the fire. That’s the goal of restoration, it isn’t to rebuild and renew but to make it look exactly as it did.

SD_1974
19
4 days ago

Wood does last 1000 years, as can be seen in churches across Europe.

turmacar
43
4 days ago

Churches across Europe have been extensively kept up and restored.

Most were bombed or caught fire or had their iconography torn down in a World War and/or any of the other European wars in the last 1000 years.

Notre Dame in particular was heavily damaged in, among other conflicts, the French revolution, rebuilt, and was basically a shell by the end of WW2, and then rebuilt.

_No_Donkey_Brains_
40
4 days ago

Fires ravaged entire cities before water was so easily accessible, so basically to beginning of the 20th century saw an end to most crazy fires. Before this many threat structures were gutted by fire and rebuilt.

Moreover, we forget that we are still a part of history. We must rebuild this structure so that 1,000 years from now future generations can look back and see what we did. This is how structures stand for millennia, when they are destroyed we rebuild them. Now our generation will leave its mark on this structure that will hopefully stand many more centuries.

zstrata
4
4 days ago

This will be the next historical marker for Notre Dame, a time capsule for our generations. The opportunity to be part of the rebuilding and restoration will attract many brilliant minds. A once life time experience. The competition will be fierce.

Funny how a building many of us never have seen invoke a sense of loss. I guess it’s a statement of who we are!

_No_Donkey_Brains_
4
4 days ago

Yeah, so many of us feel history has already happened. The reality is it’s still happening, this is part of the Notre Dames history too now.

MrCamie
9
4 days ago

Actually it has never been really destroyed in the past, during the revolution era it had been converted to a "thinking temple" and during ww2 it was a symbol of the German victory on France.

Bennyboy1337
6
4 days ago

Wood does last 1000 years, as can be seen in churches across Europe.

Under the right conditions it certainly can. I recently visited the Brecon Cathedral in Wales is older than Notre Dame, and the original 800+yr old timbers in it look strong as ever.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brecon_Cathedral

bryanofeaston
3
4 days ago

There is a Ship of Theseus element at play in the old cathedrals. Who knows which parts are how old? Not a layperson.

Solid_Freakin_Snake
2
4 days ago

Yes people need to understand, wood doesn’t last 1,000 years.

And if it does, you're supposed to call a doctor.

_No_Donkey_Brains_
2
4 days ago

Hey dad!

theswannwholaughs
1
4 days ago

Yeah the revolutions did not help the church.

TheSlamma
24
4 days ago

They cannot get this contained, I think it's going to at least partially collapse. Took 200 years to build it originally, I don't think we even have or at least very many people with the skill set to even rebuild this place in that same manner with all the amazing stonework/carvings. I don't know maybe I'm wrong about that, but either way I know it won't be done for decades. :(

_No_Donkey_Brains_
49
4 days ago

I think it’ll be up and running within 5 years, the state is likely going to commit a huge restoration fund. The stones are likely fine albeit a little darkened, they’ll be cleaned and strengthened. The woodwork is the real tragedy but that can all be replaced.

What’s likely lost forever is the artwork, yes it can be restored but those won’t be originals so the original works are lost.

GenghisKazoo
18
4 days ago

Cologne Cathedral took over a decade to repair after WW2 and it wasn't as badly damaged. I'm not saying 5 years is impossible but it will probably take 10+.

pocketknifeMT
33
4 days ago

They also didn't have anything like the resources we have today though.

Also, they can probably come up with an economic figure of what the Church brings in for tourism, which helps move shit along nicely.

Frankly, I am already onto the optimistic stuff.

In 5 years we will probably know more about how it was originally constructed, since the fire will expose things.

And we will have documentary footage of the construction this time around.

Lots of cultural value has been lost, but as a silver lining, some new stuff will probably be created because of this event.

_No_Donkey_Brains_
16
4 days ago

Yeah, Cologne itself was completely burned down to the root. The city was trying to rebuild everything and just couldn’t focus on the cathedral. Paris will focus on her gem, it’s a major money maker.

WallyJade
4
4 days ago

We've got 70 years of construction advancement since WW2. Well funded, 5 years would be totally doable.

zwiebelhans
2
4 days ago

I think it depends how much funding is thrown at the project and to what standards the work is held and what methods are allowed. You could have a steel structure up within the year covering the site.

But yeah if you want the real artisan type craftsmanship back then it can easily take 10 - 25 years.

_Z_E_R_O
12
4 days ago

Stone can crack from heat and water damage. No one is sure sure if the entire stone facade can be saved or not.

_No_Donkey_Brains_
11
4 days ago

It looks like the towers have been saved now, so I think the fire has been mostly isolated. If true this means the majority of the structure is saved and the roofing will need to be rebuilt.

Galyndean
10
4 days ago

From the livestreams, it looks pretty contained now. The water is all pretty well focused into one area instead of multiple places all over the building.

Situation looks a lot better than a few hours ago.

pixl_graphix
5
4 days ago

Did you see the drone footage from above? The building is pretty much a shell.

aeneasaquinas
2
4 days ago

You probably saw, but good news: the inside is relatively fine, as is the stone.

shit_poster9000
2
4 days ago

Those stained glass windows are gonna be a bitch and a half to replace, the tint is very unique and, so far, hasn’t ever been replicated, and the guy who made them took his technique to the grave.

suitology
2
4 days ago
O4fuxsayk
2
4 days ago

It will be, but as anyone who knows how long cathedrals take to construct can tell you, not for a long time yet.

DUPCangeLCD
2
4 days ago

It would suck to know that if rebuilt to spec, the flying buttresses would just be decoration...

Beaverbrown55
2
4 days ago

Send your thoughts and prayers!

Ashybuttons
2
4 days ago

We have the technology.

[deleted]
1
4 days ago

[deleted]

HoodieGalore
16
4 days ago

It was literally just in the middle of a $6 million renovation; this wasn't considered a sin, nor will any restoration after the fire. You know this cathedral has burned down before, and parts of it are definitely not original, right?

stairway2evan
9
4 days ago

In fact, a huge chunk of it is 18th century design. Parts of the structure are a monument to actual Gothic architecture, but the cathedral has undergone huge changes since the Renaissance.

HoodieGalore
8
4 days ago

Exactly. The greater sin would be to not restore these cultural touchstones, just because the restoration can't be done to "original" standards or with "original" materials.

I won't even get into the fact that it's been a place of worship in one form or another since Roman times. How fucking far back does one go, in order to maintain "originality"?

stairway2evan
3
4 days ago

Oh absolutely. And that's one of the reasons why Notre Dame is such a great symbol of Paris as a whole, rather than of the church alone. It's located in the oldest part (Ile de la Cite) of the city, one that's been inhabited by Celtic tribes, by Romans, by the Franks, and eventually developed through so many huge cultural shifts through Middle Ages, Renaissance, coming through the Enlightenment into Revolution and Restoration to become one of the biggest and most celebrated cities on Earth. And throughout the last, what 750 years or so, Notre Dame has overseen all of that change, and it's changed with the times as well. It holds symbols and innovations of all of the peoples who have made Paris what it is throughout those centuries, adding to it as they come.

TheSlamma
3
4 days ago

This version (856 years old) was never burnt down before. The timbers in it are that full 856 years old and are known as "The Forest" because of all the intricate work on that wood.. those are all gone now :(

General_GTFO
1
4 days ago

And forests regrow after fires.

maikelg
3
4 days ago

I know they replaced some of the gargoyles with modern versions (like an astronaut) in the past, but with a tragedy this severe they'll probably rebuild/restore it as close to the original as possible.

Saucedmammal
164
4 days ago

Forreal. I just am happy I was able to see it. I was mesmerized by its beauty

itty53
110
4 days ago

As an atheist, I was mesmerized by its beauty

What does being an atheist have to do with appreciating architecture?

thefatstoner
120
4 days ago

It kinda has something to do with it. Churches for 1000 years were the mark of architectural innovation. I think hes just making the point that no matter the religious intention, it can be appreciated for the work of art that it is

Berry_Seinfeld
23
4 days ago

They get what you mean. Just selective “confusion”

Saucedmammal
116
4 days ago

Nothing at all but the tour was overtly pushing a christian message and seemed to brush over the architecture and explain deeply the christian history of it

LoveTriscuit
101
4 days ago

It’s almost like it’s a building built by Christians for Christian purposes that houses almost an entirely Christian history.

critically_damped
47
4 days ago

Yes, and some people (and most of them atheists) would find that part of it to be ugly. Being beautiful enough to overcome that aspect is extremely fucking impressive.

Have you ever been to the Mormon Temple in Utah? It utterly fails to be so beautiful that it crawls out from under the religious baggage of its history and current usage. It's a pretty building, sure, and you wouldn't be at all surprised to find Mormons who were "mesmerized" by it. But atheists not so much, and nowhere fucking near the same level as Notre Dame.

xiic
26
4 days ago

Mormon Temple in Utah

It looks like the dollar store version of what some of Europe's cathedrals look like.

Rhamni
7
4 days ago

And it didn't have to. Those guys have a lot of money.

asshair
7
4 days ago

Not much taste though.

californiahapamama
8
4 days ago

Most of the Mormon Temples I've seen pictures of look like someone tried to build a cathedral out of Duplo blocks...

SweetFuckingPete
12
4 days ago

I’m an atheist and I find churches to be some of the most beautiful buildings in the world.

[deleted]
12
4 days ago

[removed]

Rocky87109
7
4 days ago

Hence why they said they are atheist. Congratulatuons...

Startingoveragain47
4
4 days ago

As are all of the best people.

Aeon1508
19
4 days ago

The fire is dying down now and the fire chief has announced that the structure was saved. So they should be able to just rebuild the roof

propschick05
10
4 days ago

It's more than the roof that burned. The heat would have damaged or destroyed the stained glass and I believe a good portion of the inside. What's left is a stone facade. It will take much more that rebuilding the roof to restore it.

techGore60
14
4 days ago

Shiiiiiiiiiitttt! That was one of the things thats been on my list for forever that i wanted to see one day. This actually rather physically hurts to hear.

arex333
27
4 days ago

I'm going there in like three fucking weeks. Building lasts 800 years only to burn down right before I go. I'm devastated.

TheSlamma
4
4 days ago

Shit man, that sucks so bad :(

My wife and I saw it 8 years ago and felt so lucky just to see it then.. I'm sad as shit that you missed such an amazing piece of humanism.

arex333
2
4 days ago

I'm going to see if I can go to notre dame of reims or something instead.

Werrf
3
4 days ago

The building is still there. She's hurt, yes, but she's still standing. You'll be seeing her in a way almost nobody ever has, bloodied but still standing. Treasure your place in history.

teargasjohnny
4
4 days ago

Epic loss.

Robbie-R
2
4 days ago

I think you could make the argument that its one of the most beautiful and historic buildings in the world.

fortysixandtool462
2
4 days ago

I just saw that it was up in flames. My first thought was "dear god what a loss of beautiful art, culture." Personal beliefs aside this is a real tragedy.

oldboomerhippie
1210
4 days ago

Architectural/engineering genius is hopefully loved by most of us regardless of connection to a deity. Fucking sad.

TheObstruction
389
4 days ago

Also, it was built by people. Whatever reason they had for it, it was built by humans.

utouchme
200
4 days ago

Allegedly

DesperateElderberry
75
4 days ago

I won't believe it until I see peer reviewed, repeatable science supporting the idea it was constructed by humans. Until then I'm agnostic on that particular "fact".

LauraThePlaguebringR
56
4 days ago

lol you still believe in 'humans'

Rhamni
12
4 days ago

Also, didn't it burn down in that documentary about the half formed man?

Very suspicious.

GenghisKazoo
2
4 days ago

According to mainstream medieval historians.

Or as they prefer to be called, actual medieval historians.

ObeyToTheOverlord
16
4 days ago

It was built by religious people, and today's religious people's grief is real. Just because one doesn't believe in a deity doesn't mean you can't feel empathy for those that do.

Misdreamer
16
4 days ago

I'm not religious, and my feelings of sadness for it aren't related to religious people. Notre Dame was an artistic, architectural and cultural icon, and feeling sad over seeing it go in flames doesn't have to have anything to do with it being a church.

Theexe1
4
4 days ago

Inspired by God. Religious buildings bring out the best in architecture.

MrCamie
64
4 days ago

I'm french and I can assure you that, even as a atheist, this cathedrale is a national symbol of France, of Paris. And it is also one of the most visited monument in Europe

spanktravision
5
4 days ago

I believe it receives more visits than the Eiffel tower. So heartbreaking.

EarthAllAlong
29
4 days ago

Reddit would have you believe /r/atheism is just people who love being dicks to theists. But there are tons of posts like this one that say otherwise

gamedemon24
4
4 days ago

I think it's just the ones that reach /r/all are the ones that get people fired up, and often those posts tend to cast religion in a very negative light because it's a sentiment that's very easy to rally behind. To see /r/atheism on /r/all isn't to see it with posts like these.

eoliveri
11
4 days ago

An architect once told me, "I try to design beautiful buildings despite knowing that, someday in someway or another, they will be destroyed."

PinoLG01
968
4 days ago

As Don Alemanno, an Italian satire artist and atheist said: "I'm happy for churches not being built, not for churches burning down"

Deconceptualist
166
4 days ago

I think it was the FFRF that recently had a page in their magazine dedicated to photos of churches converted to secular spaces (apartments, offices, shops, etc). It put a big smile on my face.

dragoon0106
51
4 days ago

Lol we have a brewery in downtown Indy

boredg
13
4 days ago

I remember seeing a few hundred year old church converted into a Tesco in Edinburgh.

TheRagingScientist
23
4 days ago

That’s.. disappointing.

boredg
1
4 days ago

Yes, but it was pretty cool inside though. The external structure was all stone but the internal was modern.

Moonpenny
4
4 days ago

Just a hello from another secular Indy resident! 😀

firesquasher
3
4 days ago

St. Joseph's! I was there last week on business! Good beer and food.

nude_buddhist
2
4 days ago

Yo I live in Indy and have not heard of this. What brewery is it?

MuscleBearScott
664
4 days ago

If there’s one thing that religion has provided to humankind is architecture. Some of the most beautiful, intricate, detailed structures in the world were constructed with a backbone of religion. Notre Dame has to be one of the five most significant religion-based structures in human history. It will be rebuilt. But, of course, it’ll never be the same. This is shocking and tragic.

Edit: I said the “one thing” not the “only thing” religion has provided to humankind. There is a difference.

IoSonCalaf
180
4 days ago

Also music. Some of my favorite classical pieces are religious or inspired by religion. For example, Mahler’s 2nd Symphony, called “The Resurrection”.

El_Zarco
48
4 days ago

Virtually all of Bach as well

blueperplu
20
4 days ago

And Handel

UniversalPainkiller
12
4 days ago

Zadok the Priest is a banger.

StevenW_
2
4 days ago

And DC Talk. And Hammer when he was all jesusing.

Nihan-gen3
7
4 days ago

Listening to Bach is the closest I’ll ever come to a religious experience

FullFatHat
3
4 days ago

Yeah Bach was commissioned a lot by the church. Love his music

beardedheathen
21
4 days ago

And literature, education and math. The churches did a lot especially in the past to keep Western cultural alive. A huge number of records we have prior to the 1700 is from some church or another.

xdsm8
25
4 days ago

And literature, education and math. The churches did a lot especially in the past to keep Western cultural alive. A huge number of records we have prior to the 1700 is from some church or another.

This is overlooked too often. Monks kept extensive archives when no one else would. One can be an atheist and recognize these positive contributions.

StevenW_
2
4 days ago

Prior to the invention of the press in mid 1400s the church was the only organization with access to books and education. They had and kept a monopoly on knowledge not just of the bible but of secular knowledge as well.

derekholden
12
4 days ago

There literally would not be classical music without religion. When they were wanting to unify the religious practices of Rome and the "barbarian" north of Europe, they had to have a way to transmit that material in a consistent manner. Outside of few fragments from Greece, Sumeria, and a few other places, there had not been a tradition of writing music down. The earliest musical notation developed because of this, and it isn't a coincidence that it occurred at the same time as the creation of the concept of bachelor/master/doctoral studies.

That notation eventually evolved and, a few hundred years later, started incorporating some secular music as well. When you think of some critical figures in music, they were almost all creating music primarily for worship up until 1600s. So many revolutionaries in music were revolutionary in part due to their religiosity (Hildegard, Machaut, Palestrina, Bach, all the way to Messiaen and music that is still being made today).

So we really have no concept of what a western music without a religious basis looks like.

CaptainB0b
2
4 days ago

Baba yetu, the theme song of civ 4 was a missionary song

crommo99
16
4 days ago

Actually not just individual pieces of music, but the western tonal system itself was developed in the Catholic church and the Protestant church. It’s origins lay in the notation of Jewish prayers in the early Christian church and over centuries was refined into notation we use today.

AsYouL4yDying
9
4 days ago

To be fair, it was built at a time when everyone was religious. Religion gave as beautiful architecture because it was the only game in town.

Who_Is_JohnGalt_2
462
4 days ago

Are actually there people who claim to not care because it's a ''religious bulding'' ? dumb people

Brian1701A
150
4 days ago

Well we've already had at least one person (or troll) saying as much in this thread.

kdawgud
47
4 days ago

Haters gonna hate.

Skarvha
139
4 days ago

People are dumb. You can dislike religion all you want but still appreciate the architecture and building prowess that went into these structures without modern technology.

Hadan_
66
4 days ago

Exactly! I am an atheist, but I love visiting churches (and other old buildings) for the archtecture and the sense of "space" those cathedrals have

TheSlamma
19
4 days ago

Exactly.. just the feats that were accomplished by man with a building like this. The Gothic spires, the carvings the flying buttress and the stained glass. 200 years of so much amazing work just gone..

atred
36
4 days ago

It would be like saying that Parthenon has no value because it's a temple for gods that don't exist. These building have a lot of historical and architectural value.

Containedmultitudes
7
4 days ago

As Hitchens put it I don’t need to make potentially human sacrifices to the cult of Pallas Athena to admire the beauty of the Parthenon.

mr_lab_rat
19
4 days ago

Yes, I saw a dumb comment mentioning “gods plan”. That’s just tasteless, I’m very strongly against all organized religions but this is not a loss that only affects Catholics.

Iwasborninafactory_
14
4 days ago

I saw a dumb comment mentioning “gods plan”. That’s just tasteless,

I understand the terrible loss that this cathedral is for all of us, but I do find that comment funny.

Kobayashi22
3
4 days ago

It's no more distasteful than the majority of this subreddit. Just because such a great structure burned down and I'm sad about it doesn't mean I'm suddenly going to switch sides and not talk about how god didn't stop this. Or what kind of money was probably used to build and renovate it.

mcstormy
10
4 days ago

Definitely care because of the structure itself, its still quite ironic that it caught fire though.

IGFanaan
8
4 days ago

It is sad to see this happen, but it's been rebuilt up before, and compared to the atrocities that go on everyday; I'm not personally that tore up over it. Just getting off work so I've only got small bits here and there throughout the day. I just hope no one was injured, that it was an accident, and that the fire is or gets contained.

DownVotingCats
7
4 days ago

I’m super happy about the Catholic Church having a tough time. They are the worst. However, losing cool historical places is not cool. I’m torn. I really hate the church for all the kid rape and all.

TemporaryBoyfriend
4
4 days ago

Yup. Owned and financed by an organization that protects child rapists. Built with money collected from people who were told lies about heaven and hell. Built by the hands of people who were inspired by the mistranslated stories of a charismatic, possibly schizophrenic fraud. Containing art portraying all this nonsense as if it were real.

It’s a monument to the audacity and ostentatiousness of Catholicism, second only to the Vatican, and slightly ahead of the Segrada Familia.

If it had been a building that contributed back to society, that had a use beyond it’s own aggrandizement, then I might be upset. A humble hospital, a home for the aged, even something as mundane as a park. But no. Everything that the Catholic Church stands for taints the building irredeemably in my eyes.

(Also, where was their god while it was on fire? Oilfield have been an awesome time for a deity to prove it existed.)

dontReplyIwontRead
2
4 days ago

Nah, there's more people complaining about people who MIGHT say shit like that. More so than people actually saying that shit. So yeah, basically just like how Reddit usually work.

shittstainz
2
4 days ago

I am irreligious but I appreciate the world's array of architectural styles. I also acknowledge that there are plenty of people who simply don't have as much of an attachment to buildings in general which is fine.

PM_ME_UR_FINGER
2
4 days ago

Teenage me would have been cheering. Thankfully I've grown up a little.

enantiomorphs
3
4 days ago

I could be quite the jackass when I was young. Anger and puberty are never a good combo.

Dru_21
2
4 days ago

I have seen people on Instagram saying that the only church that lights people is the one that burns down.

CaptainKeyBeard
2
4 days ago

It's just preemptive outrage.

spanktravision
2
4 days ago

Probably. Every group of people has its idiots.

Mythril_Zombie
2
4 days ago

No matter how far fetched, somebody out there will believe just about anything you can imagine.

6thSenseOfHumor
1
4 days ago

Couldn't watch a news live stream for a minute without seeing both "It is God's punishment" & "It's a church, there is no God, who cares." scroll by in the comments. I know Facebook is bound to have idiots at every turn but, I'm always surprised at the lengths stupidity will go.

buttplugpeddler
261
4 days ago

Thankfully there are no reports of injuries or deaths.

The loss of the priceless historical pieces in that place is heartbreaking regardless of anyone’s personal beliefs.

Very sad day.

vanisaac
105
4 days ago

Fortunately several statues that had been there for over a century were removed on Thursday for cleaning.

maikelg
89
4 days ago

They reported earlier that most of the art, relics and the treasury have been saved from the fire.

Norte Dame has enormous vaults under the cathedral. Anybody who goes down there to save these centuries old artifacts during a fire is both insane and a hero.

Duvelthehobbit
46
4 days ago

According to this tweet all artwork has been saved.

ShaftSpunk
48
4 days ago

Not all. Rose windows, gargoyles, etc are art. Also I think that is inaccurate even when talking about non-architectural art.

C10ckw0rks
18
4 days ago

The live thread has entire replies dedicated to the status of that Rose Window. Stained glass is a delicate art especially at that level. The church has been on fire before but this is one of if not the worst one.

Forestiere
8
4 days ago

One fireman was severely burned

elitemage101
207
4 days ago

My belief on religion is the same for modern ones as it is for the old one. Its a great artistic and historic fiction. Good for books, music, art and more like the greek gods. This church and many others are magnificent. Lets treat them like we treat the pantheon. No worship required.

PayMeNoAttention
43
4 days ago

Wasn't the pantheon purchased by the church in order to preserve it? I think the church bought many things to keep them from being sacked.

marlon_33
29
4 days ago

The pantheon in Paris was taken over by the people of France around the revolution and turned into a mausoleum for great Frenchmen.

I now realize that you meant the pantheon in Rome. But I’ll still let this sit out there....

PayMeNoAttention
10
4 days ago

I certainly did mean the one in Rome, but thanks for the trivia lesson!

frosttyyyy
10
4 days ago

The Catholic church has the largest collection of pagan artifacts.

Hadan_
10
4 days ago

If you have the opportunity, visit the vatican museum, incredible collection from tousands of years of history from all over the world!

frosttyyyy
4
4 days ago

I got to luckily visit it 2 years ago at about the same time I got to see the Notre dame

idiotsavant419
10
4 days ago

Didn't the church melt down the cap on the Pantheon and use it to build the altar at St. Peter's Basilica? Didn't the faithful knock the noses off and destroy classic sculptures? Not anti-theist here, but it's definitely revisionism to talk up the catholic church's devotion to preservation.

Swanny5674
4
4 days ago

I’m pretty sure there position has changed as of recent

idiotsavant419
3
4 days ago

I'm absolutely sure that their position has changed, but I'm not going to pretend that they didn't spend several years actively engaged in destroying history and culture, and that's just white people in Europe. We're not even touching the destruction of non-European history and culture.

Agricola20
8
4 days ago

To be fair, most of Europe spent several centuries cannibalizing ancient ruins for building materials/metal/loot. Once the Renaissance renewed interest in ancient Rome, that's when historical 'preservation' really started (at least for Roman stuff). I say that with air quotes because the renaissance men did loot a lot of stuff from the ruins too.

Poes-Lawyer
1
4 days ago

I fully agree. In Bath, here in the UK, the famous Roman Baths (from which the city got its name) are right next to the Abbey. Many tourists visit one straight after the other, and for me at least, it was much the same experience: historically and culturally significant places, but with little impact on present day society beyond that.

But I'd be equally saddened if either were destroyed.

Nexre
1
4 days ago

It's thanks to the people visiting that we get to keep these important historic buildings

FlyingSquid
196
4 days ago

On the other hand, if Notre Dame University caught fire, maybe South Bend wouldn't be so freezing.

This Indiana Joke has been brought to you by the Hoosier Board of Humor.

KingofCool328
68
4 days ago

Indiana Atheists. It's not easy for us here

kdawgud
24
4 days ago

Fist-bump from Ohio

codegreen_
12
4 days ago

Depends on where in Ohio. Here in Cleveland, nobody cares.

Alx0427
5
4 days ago

Finest bump from south side Indy!

KingofCool328
2
4 days ago

North side Indy!

alexandrasnotgreat
2
4 days ago

Ayyyyyyy!!!!!1!!!

Phrosto
2
4 days ago

Right, had a conversation with my sister about it, and instead of actually talking about it, she looked at me and said "don't say that", instead of actually talking about it.

LEGOMyBrick
2
4 days ago

Fist bump from West Central Indiana!

[deleted]
1
4 days ago

[deleted]

KingofCool328
2
4 days ago

It can be difficult for multiple groups. Some have it harder than others, but there is no single group that can claim the are the only ones that experience it.

Not taking away anything from what African-Americans have, and still experience in the United States. But Indiana is well known for being uber religious (look at our current vice president)

Cayde-6_2020
9
4 days ago

Just wait 30 seconds. It’ll warm up

Stiley34
4
4 days ago

In Bloomington at the moment. I’m heading to South Bend now with my flint and steel

brownstonebk
7
4 days ago

Say hi to Mayor Pete for me.

FlyingSquid
5
4 days ago

I was in Bloomington yesterday. My mom and my wife's family all live there and we were born and raised there.

Unfortunately, we live in Terre Haute now. Please burn it down next.

babayagaparenting
3
4 days ago

From Champaign-as a little kid told my dad Terre Haute smelled like pee pee. Why is that? Is there a giant straw factory? A soybean processing plant?

FlyingSquid
2
4 days ago

There used to be a paper mill here giving the town a bad smell. Thankfully it is gone now.

vanisaac
3
4 days ago

Please don't. I have a very close friend finishing up his doctorate there.

Stiley34
2
4 days ago

What is he going for?

Lorde_Crimson
3
4 days ago

In Bloomington now. Would appreciate a fire here before finals, if you would be so kind.

JulioCesarSalad
4
4 days ago

Idk man south bend was pretty hot on twitter yesterday

DoomsdayRabbit
2
4 days ago

Don't worry, all will be well when you're annexed into Assenispia...

nuck_forte_dame
2
4 days ago

As a Purdue alumni I got my hopes up when I heard Notre dame and fire in the same sentence.

extraradish
2
4 days ago

Don’t worry, we’re on our fourth winter. Should be the last of em.

Sluice_Mountain
2
4 days ago

I know I’m late, but as a fellow Hoosier who dated a girl from Granger, right next to ND, maybe it would make it a happier, less crazy place....but that’s neither here nor there.

HoodieGalore
1
4 days ago

Y'all get any of that snow yesterday?

dairyqueenlatifah
3
4 days ago

Just north of fort wayne did. I'm in FW but we did not

FlyingSquid
2
4 days ago

Thankfully no. Just lots of rain.

Edit: I'm not in South Bend, I'm in Terre Haute which is a long way south.

HoodieGalore
2
4 days ago

Fair enough!

[deleted]
58
4 days ago

Atheist and historian of mediaeval art here. I have no words. It was bad enough when York Minster burned down, but this is worse in every way. How people bore the loss when SO MANY cathedrals were bombed in WWI and WWII I can't imagine.

I wish there were a god, then he'd look after his buildings better :-(

rjjm88
50
4 days ago

Notre Dame isn't just a religious building. It's a symbol of human ingenuity, creativity, artistry, and skill. I know a new roof and spire is probably a decade of work, but here's to hoping it gets rebuilt.

Victernus
15
4 days ago

Not to mention Quasimodo's house. Where's he gonna live now, huh?

rjjm88
8
4 days ago

In the catacombs with Esmeralda's body after he turned her in?

ocskaplayer
49
4 days ago

Whoever disregards a historical and cultural monument just because it doesn’t follow their beliefs is stupid. These are the kind of “dumb atheists” who just go with the “trend” i guess.

SleepyConscience
44
4 days ago

Just because I don't accept the truth of the world's religions doesn't mean I can't appreciate their positive impacts on humanity. Notre Dame is a world treasure and should be cherished as such.

RobieWan
26
4 days ago

This is absolutely horrible. It is an architectural marvel and filled with an inordinate amount of priceless history. The fact that it is a cathedral is completely and totally irrelevant.

Thankfully there are no reports of injuries or deaths.

Yeah, well, I'm sure "God" will get all the credit for that....

nuephelkystikon
6
4 days ago

Yeah, well, I'm sure "God" will get all the credit for that....

France is more sensible than that.

RobieWan
3
4 days ago

One can only hope..

[deleted]
2
4 days ago

[deleted]

emperor_tesla
13
4 days ago

The candles had nothing to do with the fire, though. Caused by an electrical fault, apparently a construction accident.

Swanny5674
3
4 days ago

Well it’s been 800 years and nothing like this has happened to my knowledge , so a pretty good track record

alvarezg
36
4 days ago

So much damaged architecture has been reconstructed in the past; let's hope Notre Dame can be restored, long as it might take.

Skarvha
23
4 days ago

I think it will be, in the last few years they have been digitally scanning a lot of monuments purely for this reason. So much history can be wiped out in the blink of an eye. I have no doubt they have the technical drawings and enough reference pictures, whether they have the money and drive to do it will be another thing.

alvarezg
22
4 days ago

I think the entire world will chip in to rebuild Notre Dame.

db2
10
4 days ago

This sub has pooled money before, maybe we should do it again.

ShaftSpunk
2
4 days ago

I'd rather pay into a fund to help people rather than to blow a ton of money on a massive monument to a nonexistent god. It's awful it burned, but it was built by a church that claims to be dedicated to helping people while building massive opulent buildings to jerk off to. No reason to continue the trend.

db2
6
4 days ago

That's a good reason not to build new, it's not a good reason not to preserve or restore a historical landmark.

Thin-White-Duke
1
4 days ago

I know Catholic church bad, but the Catholics will absolutely be raising money for this.

THE-Prominent-Beaver
5
4 days ago

Whenever I am in a historical place, I like to think that I am looking upon the same things (stones, artifacts, tapestries, statues,etc) that those that lived centuries ago did. I feel like the walls have seen countless memories, and they contain particles or molecules from those bygone days. It’s a bridge to the past.

A rebuild fills the space, but can never provide this level of transcendence for me.

ShaftSpunk
1
4 days ago

Well that makes no sense. The interior was pretty extensively modified in the 1800s. Maybe they could mix the ashes in with some tears of victims of sexual assault with some paint when they rebuild to satisfy your transcendence.

THE-Prominent-Beaver
2
4 days ago

I don’t let my atheistic views spoil my admiration of history and man’s achievements in art and science, regardless of the context they were created in.

why_itsme
5
4 days ago

Glad I am not the only one. Been in tears since I heard about the fire.

iblamethegnomes
4
4 days ago

Loosing the rose windows devastated me. Measures were taken to save them during world wars and now they’ve melted.

kendrickplace
29
4 days ago

As an atheist and history major, I appreciate religious history. I mainly enjoy Islamic history and how much knowledge they gave us from math, science, art and a lot more.

Check out Alhambra in Spain. That place is beautiful.

Just because we’re atheist, doesn’t mean we can’t appreciate other people’s culture.

fliccolo
25
4 days ago

It was the home of the Notre Dame School of Polyphony in the middle ages that changed how the western world makes music to this very day.

tdud123
17
4 days ago

Can anybody change the flair from “current hot topic”? I mean...

angry_krausen
19
4 days ago

People sure do get fired up about the subject.

Merari01
12
4 days ago

Done, thank you for pointing it out.

Brian1701A
7
4 days ago

I think that's an automatic thing, I didn't put it there, but I see what you mean.

tdud123
1
4 days ago

I figured as much but unfortunately it doesn’t quite work

reddit455
15
4 days ago

been there 600 years BEFORE the Declaration of Independence was written.

Jtktomb
16
4 days ago

Very well said, merci.

Atheist_Simon_Haddad
19
4 days ago

It's too much of a cash cow for the vatican not to pay to rebuild it. The taxpayers absolutely shouldn't pay a cent (eurocent?) to repair anything. If that's unavoidable, (for historic or landmark reasons, for example) then at the very least the taxpayers shouldn't pay for anything inside the building.

Edit: Apparently historic reasons; the government has owned the cathedral since 1905.

phcampbell
16
4 days ago

I was just half listening to NPR and I believe they said the government was covering the cost of the renovation that was occurring and that it had been falling apart for years. Makes one wonder why the Catholic church ISN’T responsible for the cost.

ibmxgeo
16
4 days ago

It's Paris' number one tourist attraction bringing in more people than the Eiffel Tower.

Aiucinante
15
4 days ago

The cathedral is owned by the French state, not the catholic church.

_carzard_
7
4 days ago

Why should the church pay for the repairs of a building they don't own? Notre Dame Cathedral has been owned by the French State since 1905.

LaminatedAirplane
7
4 days ago

It’s a bigger cash cow for France than it is for the Vatican.

iblamethegnomes
2
4 days ago

Does the cathedral have a regularly attending parish?

axelthegreat
2
4 days ago

Yes

DaBestNameEvuh
14
4 days ago

I've been to Notre Dame, and it is one of the most beautiful buildings I've ever seen. It's truly sad that it might now be damaged beyond repair.

Em42
3
4 days ago

I completely agree with this sentiment. I may be an atheist, but I've been there and it was beautiful. My father and I spent a couple hours admiring the craftsmanship of just the woodwork alone (and he was agnostic). You don't have to be religious to appreciate when something is beautiful and architecturally important or that many people over the years put their hearts into making it the way it is. Like the people who carved the wood, next to perfectly, by hand.

Luminox
12
4 days ago

Same here. Sad to loose all that history. It survived almost a millennium (800+ years).... numerous wars including 2 World Wars... Only to go up in flames from a construction accident.

tallperson117
10
4 days ago

It's a piece of human history, nearly 1000 years of which was lost in a single afternoon. It's a damn shame.

evenios
10
4 days ago

yeah i am on the fence about religon of late but i always loved cathedrals they are such cool buildings i visited the national cathedral in DC 3 times when i visited last year..and always wanted to visit notre dame :-( sucks this happened. just shows you how damaging fire can be. and the irony that the very efforts to restore it may have help lead to its destruction (by providing basically tons of kindling)

[deleted]
8
4 days ago

[removed]

Rikki-Tikki-Tavi-12
3
4 days ago

While no one wanted to see something as magnificent as Notre Dame burn, it is remarkable that god's house seems to burn like any other house.

fonddutrou2
9
4 days ago

I’m an atheist leftist who is absolutely heartbroken by this. If any one building represents the soul of France, it’s Notre Dame de Paris.

I’ve had the chance to go inside that cathedral, and it was absolutely spectacular and moving. And it’s really sad when you think of all of the beautiful work that thousands put their blood, sweat and tears into over the centuries.

furcryingoutloud
7
4 days ago

The architectural value of this loss is what really has me in shock. It's a building that is almost 1000 years old. Whatever relationships it has with religion is moot. It is truly something to mourn. Regardless of how much you believe or not. It's historical value is irreplaceable.

HikinOut8
4
4 days ago

But it is replaceable. It's been renovated, restored and added on to many times in the past.

cheesymccheeseplant
7
4 days ago

I have a colleague who seems to think that my being atheist means that I can't appreciate religious buildings, artefacts and music. I just wish the money had been spent on different things. It's a shame when any culturally important structures are lost. See also: Palmyra and the Buddhas of Bamyan

teddydish
8
4 days ago

If there’s one thing religion has helped, it’s art. This is a tragedy.

labratcat
7
4 days ago

Staunch atheist here. I love Notre Dame so much and it has always been a highlight of my visits to Paris. Watching the footage today was devastating.

Black_RL
7
4 days ago

Nothing to do with atheism, this is a sad lost to mankind.

ThatGamerMoshpit
7
4 days ago

If religion brought anything good to the world it was art

SamK7265
6
4 days ago

Don’t want to be that guy, but did you mean to say “understated”?

Brian1701A
5
4 days ago

No, I meant overestimated. Too bad I can't edit the typo.

ADeweyan
8
4 days ago

Pretty sure what you are looking for is "cannot be overestimated." That means that it's impossible to estimate the cathedral as having more value than it has -- that it is immeasurably valuable. Saying "cannot be underestimated" means just the opposite -- that its value is even less than the lowest possible estimate.

Either that, or you meant "MUST not be underestimated," that is talking about the importance of finding value in the building.

Subtle, I know, but the phrase in the title right now says exactly the opposite of what you intended.

Either way, I agree with what you are saying.

Brian1701A
1
4 days ago

Unfortunately I cannot edit the title, but I see what you're saying.

bike619
5
4 days ago

That is really sad. I hope that it's salvageable, and I'm glad I got to see it.

Fastfaxr
6
4 days ago

Hopefully this will be a reminder to bring historical buildings up to code.

CheloniaMydas
5
4 days ago

I am athiest, completely no belief in God but I do love and admire the architectural work that has gone into many religious buildings. They are in their own way a beautiful form of art

mackduck
1
4 days ago

Indeed. Durham nearly brought me to tears...

lpreams
3
4 days ago

OP I think you mean it can't be overstated.

"Can't be underestimated/understated" means it's really bad, so bad that the worst opinion you could have isn't bad enough. You're (I assume) trying to say the opposite of that.

And you're not estimating anything, just making a statement.

Brian1701A
1
4 days ago

Unfortunately I cannot change the title of the thread.

thatoldladynene
4
4 days ago

I feel bereavement, because Notre Dame is on my bucket list and I'll never check it off.

PHD_Memer
5
4 days ago

I was thinking the same, I have no love for churches, but this is more than a church. The history and beauty of this building are astounding. This things a fucking symbol of French, and in general, western, culture. Absolutely irreplaceable loss.

Calfredie01
5
4 days ago

The good news is the Notre Dame cathedral over its nearly 1000 years of history has been damaged very many times (the French Revolution comes to mind) and has been restored every time

The bad news is that according to people who study it this is the worst damage it’s ever taken

Source: NPRs all things considered they brought on some people that study it to talk about it an hour or so ago

Pengee1235
7
4 days ago

Despite my religious views (or lack thereof), a cathedral (especially one built hundreds of years old) is always worth protecting. Not only does it serve as a museum for artefacts, or a very historical monument, but it also serves as a beacon of hope for our religious counterparts. Burning down churches isn’t the way to move forward.

Fantastic-2019
4
4 days ago

Also an atheist and feeling terrible about this. I am no fan of the Catholic Church, but Notre Dame is more than religion to the French and others around the world. I visited Paris and this beautiful place this past summer and feel lucky to have seen it.

bishpa
5
4 days ago

I am an atheist who loves churchs.

NickHBS
6
4 days ago

Saw someone else saying “why do you care it burned down, at least it’s not as significant as the Eiffel Tower” and that people shouldn’t be so upset about it because “there’s pictures, it doesn’t matter if we lose the real thing” and oooohhhh boy if I could punch somebody through a screen I would

PatrickPlan8
5
4 days ago

I don't get why people are acting like its gone. It can be rebuilt. We have all this information on it from 3d scans to high resolution photographs and all that jazz. Its not like it will go away. Its not truly lost. What you think they are gonna bulldoze it down and build a parking lot or something?

brennanfee
5
4 days ago

My thoughts exactly. It is a severe loss.

Ambitious_Dust
4
4 days ago

Here is a livestream from Canadian public broadcast (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mlFCAOSpa0). Last I heard it sounds like the interior has been destroyed. What a heartbreaking tragedy.

FlyingSquid
9
4 days ago

The spire has already collapsed. Can that even be rebuilt without spending an outrageous sum of money? Will it be?

Ambitious_Dust
12
4 days ago

My uneducated, uninformed guess is yes. The church has undergone massive reconstruction over the centuries, and because it is such an integral part of the French identity I think the vast majority will support repairs. I imagine it will take decades, though.

It's such a heartbreak to watch. That building is a monument to history, art, architecture, and social camaraderie.

MakPo
6
4 days ago

The Catholic church has a LOT of money. Let's hope they put it to some good.

_carzard_
5
4 days ago

Building isn't owned by the catholic church. It has been owned and maintained by the government since 1905

Etchisketchistan
7
4 days ago

Notre Dame is a symbol of France, and probably its most famous building besides the Eiffel Tower. I can guarantee you they will rebuild it.

PhotoJim99
4
4 days ago

The spire can be replaced, although it may take a long time even if the main church is saved. The spire was only installed in the 1800s. (The church was built in the 1200s.)

MrCamie
3
4 days ago

It can, but it needs to be using the same method as when it was first built

Snoween
2
4 days ago

If each of the "12 million visitors per year" would give 1€ for the restoration it would be a start.

Dutch-Sculptor
4
4 days ago

In the name of god people build some wonderfull buildings.

mundotaku
4
4 days ago

I think we can all appreciate its beauty and its architectural value. Certainly it can't be replaced and even if restored it will not be the same.

pixl_graphix
2
4 days ago

even if restored it will not be the same.

Well, hopefully, I'd like it a little more up to fire code.

cranfeckintastic
4
4 days ago

This makes me really sad. I love the architecture in all these old buildings and to see this one in particular go down like this... consider all the one of a kind original artwork inside that's lost forever, all those buttresses and gargoyles

rhutanium
6
4 days ago

I absolutely agree. Irreplaceable architecture and culture have been lost.

My sick sense of humor however says it’s probably because my catholic brother in law didn’t eat fish last Friday.

stevemcqueensrus
4
4 days ago

I was lucky to have dinner across the river at night and was staggered by its beauty. All lit up at night it was so beautiful. This is truly tragic.

tiy24
5
4 days ago

Same I was raised catholic. Went to the Vatican for Easter mass on a high school trip and you’re just smacked in the face with such a sense of history. Paris is high on my list and this is just heartbreaking

OhYouForgotMyName
4
4 days ago

I hope everyone is safe!

hammerfan
4
4 days ago

I am and have always been an atheist. Never believed. But I have always found churches and buildings of worship to be some of the nicest and prettiest buildings ever built. This a loss of history and is a terrible shame.

Stroock6394
5
4 days ago

i've said this ever since first visiting it... had i been a blank religious slate a few hundred years ago, i'd definitely be a catholic because the vatican is absolutely one of the most miraculous things i've ever seen, and if i didn't know better i'd say that these people's god is definitely more awesome than the others

from a few dozen feet away you see this painting and go wow that's a very impressive painting, but then you get closer and realize holy shit that's a mosaic!?

minty_teacup
4
4 days ago

Notre Dame started the whole "we as a society must protect these old buildings/structures/historical landmarks because they are a part of our culture and history." Victor Hugo wrote The Hunchback of Notre-Dame mainly as a way to get the population to care about old architecture. I sincerely hope it can be rebuilt.

cerebud
4
4 days ago

But, but, I thought everyone on this sub was supposed to be hateful of everything! /s Good to know we’re all on the same page here.

2manyfelines
4
4 days ago

Atheist here too, but very touched by the Parisians singing “Ave Maria” as they sobbed through the fall of the spire.

Sphism
4
4 days ago

As an atheist I've always considered architecture to be the single redeeming factor of religion.

Glad I got to visit notre dame before this happened.

nicehuman16
5
4 days ago

I am also an atheist. I went to Notre Dame Cathedral last year. I am glad to hear that they were able to save much of it. I have also enjoyed visiting the Vatican. You don't have to be religious to appreciate the history and art of these places.

BePositiveDontWhine
3
4 days ago

I love the looks of cathedrals, mosques, and a lot of churches. It's the people inside that are ugly.

yourbrokenoven
4
4 days ago

Today I learned Notre Dame is not in Indiana.

falcon_driver
5
4 days ago

I went to my garage and hugged my 2CV. It was crying. One of us was.

Damunzta
4
4 days ago

Absolutely, I can't overstate the sadness I felt when I saw the news. Cultural heritage like that is priceless.

Mainzerize
2
4 days ago

CNN just announced that, if the bell falls, there's a risk that the tower will collapse. Seeing firefighters in the towers give me hope though. Believe in something or not. This his history being destroyed on live TV. All the best to our friends and neighbors from Germany!

BaijuTofu
3
4 days ago

The stained glass windows are amazing when the sun shines through.

MpVpRb
3
4 days ago

I visited there many years ago and was amazed at the craftsmanship and artistry

Beef_Butter32
3
4 days ago

It was if anything a monument to architectural brilliance.

PlanetoftheAtheists
1
4 days ago

I was just there this Christmas. I'm sitting here with tears in my eyes. I have amazing video footage of the interior of that place a few months ago. They claim to have the crown of thorns in there which was pretty disgusting, a huge lie. But that's the hierarchy of the church making those claims. This is a terrible terrible day

Watchkeeper001
3
4 days ago

I wholeheartedly agree. It has made me sick to the pit of my stomach watching this unfold.

Comet_Pluto
4
4 days ago

This is truly a great loss for humanity. A cornerstone of our history, turned to ash...

badnewsbeers86
2
4 days ago

Agreed in full. Regardless of religion this beautiful building was an icon of human achievement. A terrible, tragic loss for humanity.

lenoxxx69
3
4 days ago

Say what you want about religion, but it gives us some kick ass buildings

free_mustacherides
3
4 days ago

It's a huge loss for all of humanity. It's an important historical structure that houses a ton of art and is important to France.

TalenPhillips
2
4 days ago

"The innate human revulsion against desecration is much older than any monotheism: Its most powerful expression is in the Antigone of Sophocles. It belongs to civilization" — Christopher Hitchens

source

Avarice21
3
4 days ago

Varg is at it again.

SpaghettiNinja_
3
4 days ago

Though I am militant in my opposition towards religion we cannot deny the impact it has had on our world. In this case in the form of awe inspiring architecture

sobedog
3
4 days ago

Absolutely, and anyone to say otherwise is a moron. Notre Dame, Sagrada Familia, St Peters Basilica, Hagia Sophia, Sixtine Chapel, etc, etc... are all human patrimony, they are part of our history and should be preserved at all costs.

AKA_Squanchy
3
4 days ago

Absolutely. This building is why I got an Art History minor. I’ve had the pleasure of seeing it twice and my three kids were with us last November. I couldn’t stop staring at it. We walked around it. We visited it multiple times in our 4 day stay in Paris. It is built on the birthplace of Paris. It’s the heart of the city. I felt sick all day. What a tragic loss.

norcal111
3
4 days ago

I very much regret not visiting the place

Sm0keTrail
0
4 days ago

How tragic! only know it from the Hunchback of Notre dame, but I'm still sad.

DoomsdayRabbit
6
4 days ago

Maybe Disney will contribute heavily to the repairs.

lax714
1
4 days ago

Joan of Arc... so much history of the Western World. Tragedy for sure.

[deleted]
2
4 days ago

[removed]

theburgerman03
3
4 days ago

It’s being investigated, but it’s believed to be an accident

Peedy83
4
4 days ago

It’s too early to know, but it’s been mentioned that it could have been accidental, caused by renovations that are being done.

[deleted]
3
4 days ago

[removed]

Lithl
3
4 days ago

The local police are currently saying it was accidental, but possibly related to currently ongoing renovations.

RickRussellTX
2
4 days ago

We didn't start the fire.

askme_if_im_a_chair
2
4 days ago

I love church architecture, only good thing about religion. This is a shame

gonothebrave
2
4 days ago

Feel the exact same way. Such a shame... Really wish I could of seen it in person before this.

badnewsbeers86
1
4 days ago

Agreed in full. Regardless of religion this beautiful building was an icon of human achievement. A terrible, tragic loss for humanity.

TangoZuluMike
2
4 days ago

They've rebuilt it many times. This will just be one more of them.

chatmans
2
4 days ago

60% of French peoples consider themselves as non-religious.

Yet everyone agree that it's really sad that the "Forest" burnt down.

It's not a religion thing right now.

BeholdYou_is_my_kik
2
4 days ago

cannot be underestimated

Cannot be overestimated. What you’ve written means the opposite of you what you meant.

ZSCampbellcooks
2
4 days ago

I used to get really uppity about the existence of gigantic beautiful churches/cathedrals, but I learned about the many scientific revolutions that they spurred, and suddenly I realized that things are not so black and white.

Iris_Ben
2
4 days ago

If there's one thing we Atheists can all praise Theism for, it's art.

Brian1701A
2
4 days ago

Agreed.

KieronR
2
4 days ago

While I agree that this is a loss, it doesn't seem to be an especially great one and the first glimpse I've had of the media feeding frenzy seems reminiscent of the death of Princess Diana, a reaction I found shallow, and stinking of the ease with which people can be caught up in and further feed mass hysteria. I presume that the building and everything in it are to some degree preserved through copies, architectural studies and various media. I hope that preservation is more complete than incomplete.

With historic sites we are ultimately looking at a ship of Theseus situation. However long it takes, no original component will remain at some point, but we can preserve things as information. Imagine investing our efforts in the most precise digitization of significant sites and objects. Imagine how many more people could enjoy them through hyperreal VR. How many more would have access, without the prerequisite of being able to travel to Paris?

I have seen Notre Dame and many other beautiful cathederals, mosques, and temples of many religions. I would not hope for their destruction, although the ideologies that directed the resources of the populations that built them should lose their grip on people's minds. I hope this incident inspires more caretakers of historic things to invest more heavily in their worst case scenario plan and to digitise everything that they can to the best our improving technology allows.

oceanwomanman
2
4 days ago

I wonder if it was arson

[deleted]
2
4 days ago

[removed]

[deleted]
2
4 days ago

[removed]

religiousaftermath
1
4 days ago

I agree.

TricksterTrio
1
4 days ago

I've been broken up about this news since I heard about it, for exactly this reason.

frosttyyyy
1
4 days ago

Probably one of the few pieces of art whose loss is extremely sad. Glad I got to see it without the damage and I hope they managed to subdue the fire before any major damage.

Dire-Dog
1
4 days ago

That is very sad

ZuccedAgain
1
4 days ago

Does anyone know how the fires started?

Brian1701A
7
4 days ago

No, but it started in an area that is being renovated and the police currently suspect it may be a tragic accident.

JectorDelan
5
4 days ago

There was renovation going on, so it could be linked to that but it's wayyyy too early to really know.

BOT_MARX
1
4 days ago

Agree

confettiqueen
0
4 days ago

I'm in Barcelona right now for a vacation and have seen some beautiful, historical buildings - everything from churches to castles (Magala has beautiful architecture as well) - hoping Notre Dame can be saved.

cezece
1
4 days ago

I like all churches, temples, mosques, etc. just for the beautiful architecture and the craftsmanship of all the workers who designed and built them.

taki1002
1
4 days ago

This beautiful historical building survived for 674 years, the French revolution, and two world wars with minor damages. It's devastating.

6thSenseOfHumor
4
4 days ago

Ironic that it would receive the most damage during what was supposed to be a restoration project. I wouldn't want to be a member of that crew.

Maker_Of_Tar
1
4 days ago

Such a beautiful place. This is horrible.

big_toe_boi
1
4 days ago

Update on the situation for those who don’t want to read the articles: The main spire has collapsed and so has the roof. Saving the building is doubtful. All of the major foreign leaders have released twitter statements of apology.

t-schrand
1
4 days ago

my sister was there last week. one of the last to see it.

Emebust
1
4 days ago

Our family was lucky enough to tour Notre Dame last summer. Got to go up on the roof and everything. It was a gorgeous place. The artworks inside are really irreplaceable. Wonder what they will do. I hope it does not completely collapse. I love the gargoyles.

Rock3tPunch
1
4 days ago

Atheist or not all Cathedrals, and in general places of worship, have extreme significants from an Architecture, Engineering and Historic pov.

OnTheList-YouTube
1
4 days ago

I'm half French. This hurts a lot, as it's one of France' most important building of it's history.

OnTheList-YouTube
1
4 days ago

I'm half French. This hurts a lot, as it's one of France' most important building of it's history.

LadyDevonna13
1
4 days ago

This makes me so incredibly sad. What a beautiful building. Hopefully it can be restored.

Crystalraf
1
4 days ago

It is a shame. I would have like to have seen it and this does upset me. I kind of wonder how the fire started.

airlew
1
4 days ago

I agree. You can not blame the venue for the sins of the programming.

ChewzaName
1
4 days ago

Those buttrresses tho

OxboxturnoffO
1
4 days ago

I’m not religious but I slept on the little grass patch right outside it one night because our room had too many people in it and the hostel manager kicked me out. It was beautiful to wake up to and I strangely felt safe there. It’s sad to think next time I’m there it’ll be completely different.

ElectricRequiem
1
4 days ago

I fully agree.

I’ve always loved the history and the architecture of the building. Something that was always on my bucket list to see.

It’s sad to see what some people are saying about it or trying to make into memes.

BananaBarfer
1
4 days ago

How long did it take to build? Literally centuries wasn't it?

SLR107FR-31
1
4 days ago

So much history witnessed by that structure. Damn, I hope it gets rebuilt brick by brick.